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> > Desi Johnson is clearly on. There is nothing natural about her muscles. Look at her bulkiness, thick shoulders etc. You can also see her face is altered from juicing. To even ask about Gabby.. man you are living in the blue.
Pretty sure Desi is WADA tested, being a track athlete.
Gabby, I know some girls that shape natural. Her early pictures are softer and look that way. "In the blue"...whatever that means. :-)
I mean come on how can you not see? She even got that acne going. A girl never gets both that shredded and overall bulky like she is without special juices. Look at her smiling in her last clip - which is that typical juicing smile. Her cheeks bones have gotten longer and her cheek is wider, there is not even a question she has been on at some point.
"Living in the blue" means your mind is floating in fantasies in the blue sky completely detached from solid ground. :-)
Gabby's a tricky one. Some women have HUGE legs naturally; with enough heavy squats, perfect nutrition, judging her by her legs, she could actually natty. But her upper body development, huge shoulders, thick and wide pecs, its looking like she's on some kind of PED for sure
Yeah, that's where I sit too.
I mean come on how can you not see? She even got that acne going. A girl never gets both that shredded and overall bulky like she is without special juices. Look at her smiling in her last clip - which is that typical juicing smile. Her cheeks bones have gotten longer and her cheek is wider, there is not even a question she has been on at some point.
"Living in the blue" means your mind is floating in fantasies in the blue sky completely detached from solid ground. :-)
I dunno. I don't see it, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe my heart (well, not my heart if we're honest) blinds me.
Ahh...blue right...like the sky gotcha.
This look is achievable for a woman without using steroids. This is an example of hard, smart training, good diet and lucky genetics. I personally know women who look similar and never touched a steroid.
Same here. Same thoughts and know similar women - especially women with Polynesian or African American genes. Some Polynesian (especially Samoan and Tongan) girls have a suspiciously high FFMI but are as natural as...something extremely natural.
This look is achievable for a woman without using steroids. This is an example of hard, smart training, good diet and lucky genetics. I personally know women who look similar and never touched a steroid.
Any athlete in the higher ranks of Crossfit is not natural. Is this body type naturally attainable after years of structured training without being a competitive athlete? Extremely low probability because no one has the genetics, luxury, knowhow, or determination to put so much work, money and energy without being a professional. And if you are a pro, ultra high probability you are juicing.
Olympic athletes after 2004 is your best bet of what is possible having the top 1% genetics and decades of structured professional paid training. Also some Cirque De Solei athletes. Anything above that is 100% enhanced in addition to many many others way below that level that are also on PEDs. Women gymnasts are also a good bet and we all know they too don't stand a chance against the muscularity of even regional IFBB shows.
Desi Johnson is still below the muscularity of the top Olympians so yes she is natural. Olympians before 2004 were juiced to the grills.
People are naive and ignorant of training and juicing and here in GWM it is even worse because of the fetishists. Social media have been a major factor for widespread use of anabolics and desensitizing the public perception of enhanced bodies.
And here is a visual for you https://www.girlswithmuscle.com/images/?name=...
I will now stay here and enjoy some absurd natty claims.
> > Pretty sure Desi is WADA tested, being a track athlete. > > Gabby, I know some girls that shape natural. Her early pictures are softer and look that way. "In the blue"...whatever that means. :-)
Marion Jones never failed a drug test.
Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test.
Lance Armstrong used blood doping, meaning he took blood out of his body stored it, let his body replace the blood he lost, then put the blood he took out back into his body. Hopefully I remembered everything correctly.
Tomoko Kanda:
Same goes for Satoko Yamanouchi and anyone else competing in the JBBF. The JBBF takes their ban on steroid use seriously and you risked losing a whole lot of face if you were found out. That's part of the reason why Japanese fbbs are still so small, even when the Koreans and Chinese started fielding huge muscle monsters. (The other part is, it's hard to find a man to marry in Japan if you're muscular... they're a little regressive that way.)
To no one's surprise, Tomoko always gets "randomly" selected for JBBF drug screening. Despite having mind-boggling genetics for a Japanese fbb, she is nowhere near as big or as hard as most of the girls we thirst up on here.
This is going to be a long reply, but bear with me. These discussions on PED use versus “natural” overlook some fundamental facts at play.
First, if Instagram or a site like this is where you look to find “natural“ muscle, you don’t have a very good sampling method. Most of the people who feel motivated to snap fitness and/or muscle pictures of themselves are putting a lot of effort into achieving a certain look. The desire to get this look, especially with a desire to compete for the best look at elite levels, will compel a lot of these selfie takers to use some sort of supplements or PEDs. Want to see some real natural muscle? Join a rock climbing club. Or a running club. Or a cycling club.
Yes, there are a range of body types where people are pre-disposed to different muscle/fat ratios. Also some people build muscle more easily than others. But you have to look at the selection bias that takes place on social media.
Second, speaking in general: the human body, like all animals, seeks the greatest amount of energy for the lowest possible effort. This is why we crave all the high calorie foods that end up not being good for us. For most of human history, we had to work hard to get our calories. Because of this, the human body stores excess energy as fat, and it does not waste precious energy keeping any more muscle than is necessary for its activities. That’s why, if you sit around, you lose muscle. If you challenge your body with strength training (or hard work), the muscles will respond with greater strength and size.
These tendencies create a kind of a paradox: human beings who are naturally very lean tend to not have large muscle mass. And, many human beings who naturally develop a lot of muscle mass typically do not naturally stay lean. This is the body’s natural tendency to not hang onto any more muscle than what it can support metabolically.
Bodybuilding takes one aspect of our biology, that is, the muscles responding to work with greater strength and size, and then tries to hack all of the other biological predispositions of the human body. Optimal bodybuilding restricts caloric intake to just the amount needed to support muscle size and growth, but not accumulate any fat. This is not a natural state for the human body. It also seeks to maximize muscle mass beyond what a typical human body needs in day-to-day life. Also not a natural state for the human body.
What does this have to do with PED use? The old circus pictures that were posted to this thread are a great example. Those women were trapeze artists. They had to build incredible upper body strength to support their own weight and the weight of a partner hanging on them while swinging through the air. But take a look at the full body pictures of these women. They don’t have super thin waists with defined abdominals. Even looking at their arms, there is a normal level of body fat on their physiques. Their bodies have responded to the work and the training through increased muscle size and strength, but they do not have a super lean and dry look that you see with even figure and bikini competitors.
This is where PEDs come into play. In general, you have to choose between having a lot of extra muscle mass and not being very lean, or dieting down and becoming very lean but not being able to hang onto all that extra muscle mass. PEDs hack this balance of the human body. They allow for faster healing, which allows for heavier and more frequent weight training to increase muscle size and strength. They also keep the body anabolic, that is, in a muscle building state. So, simultaneous to allowing/enabling a faster healing and recovery time, PEDs allow for calorie restriction to reduce body fat at a level that the human body does not naturally tolerate without going catabolic. In plain English: if a person with extra muscle mass decided to “diet down“ and show off all those muscles naturally, there’s a strong chance their body would decide to use muscle for energy, and bring their muscle mass down to the average level before it would start burning any fat. Why? This goes back to our ancient biology of getting the maximum number of calories for the smallest amount of effort, while maintaining only the muscle mass that is needed for activity.
To sum it all up: most of the girls on this site are going for a particular look, and the people who hang out on the site want to see a particular look. That look does not happen naturally. In order to accomplish the optimal “muscle girl“ look, folks have to find a way to hack their biology. Sure, it takes hard work. But hard work alone, as evidenced in the photos of those circus performers long ago, will not achieve the lean and hard aesthetic required today.
@asianfitnessfan You wrote a lengthy explanation, similar to ones written before but clueless "admirers" don't seem to get it no matter how it is explained to them. Modern muscle women, as seen on social media and competitions are 100% a product of PEDs, plain and simple.
What baffles my mind is that of all the people these are the most offended by this reality.
PS And no Tomoko Kanda is not natural. She is a woman with chest striations. They might have stricter steroid laws in Japan but I highly doubt they test Clebuterol, or insulin, or Growth Hormone, or do offseason testing. They are not WADA.
@Ovi33:
PS And no Tomoko Kanda is not natural. She is a woman with chest striations. They might have stricter steroid laws in Japan but I highly doubt they test Clebuterol, or insulin, or Growth Hormone, or do offseason testing. They are not WADA.
I forgot to mention-- because my reply was getting too long-- the meaning of "natural" is problematic to begin with. If Tomoko drinks three Diet Cokes every day to raise metabolism with caffeine, is she no longer "natural"? Bonaciti may be correct that Tomoko hasn't been heavy into anablolics. But because of all the secrecy and BS, we will never know.
> > Desi Johnson is clearly on. There is nothing natural about her muscles. Look at her bulkiness, thick shoulders etc. You can also see her face is altered from juicing. To even ask about Gabby.. man you are living in the blue.
Pretty sure Desi is WADA tested, being a track athlete.
WADA doesn't administer the drug tests, that's done by the relevant national anti-doping agency. Most anti-doping agencies don't have the physical ability to administer drug tests to every athlete. The general opinion of the anti-doping agencies is that they are there to be seen to be doing something, rather than actually stamping out doping. And even if the athlete is tested, they don't always test for everything the athlete could use due to cost.
To anyone who believes being WADA-tested equals being clean, I advice watching the documentary Icarus. It gives a decent idea of how easy it is to cheat the system. Even olympic sports are full of drugs. Since the olympics have the strictest testing around, any other events or competitions that aren't the olympics are even more likely to be full of PEDs.
As for the names mentioned in this thread:
Desi Johnson: natty achievable
Emma Hartley: likely not natty, but possibly natty achievable
Gabby Fortune: not natty
Tomoko Kanda: not natty
Any athlete in the higher ranks of Crossfit is not natural. Is this body type naturally attainable after years of structured training without being a competitive athlete? Extremely low probability because no one has the genetics, luxury, knowhow, or determination to put so much work, money and energy without being a professional. And if you are a pro, ultra high probability you are juicing.
Olympic athletes after 2004 is your best bet of what is possible having the top 1% genetics and decades of structured professional paid training. Also some Cirque De Solei athletes. Anything above that is 100% enhanced in addition to many many others way below that level that are also on PEDs. Women gymnasts are also a good bet and we all know they too don't stand a chance against the muscularity of even regional IFBB shows.
Desi Johnson is still below the muscularity of the top Olympians so yes she is natural. Olympians before 2004 were juiced to the grills.
People are naive and ignorant of training and juicing and here in GWM it is even worse because of the fetishists. Social media have been a major factor for widespread use of anabolics and desensitizing the public perception of enhanced bodies.
And here is a visual for you https://www.girlswithmuscle.com/images/?name=...
I will now stay here and enjoy some absurd natty claims.
OMG Dafne is gorgeous!!
Cheers for your input Ovi.
Lance Armstrong used blood doping, meaning he took blood out of his body stored it, let his body replace the blood he lost, then put the blood he took out back into his body. Hopefully I remembered everything correctly.
separated user's response from quoted comments, in the future please remember to have an empty line between the quote and response
Awesome. Thanks Mr Admin! :-)
@OVI I'm certain no one's offended by being challenged about their GWM in this thread. Other threads maybe but this one's pretty straightforward.
@irsa76 and cdcd, good points.
I was on the WADA anti-doping testing roster for a few years myself. Out of competition mandatories are porous and can be worked around.
But a few things stop you. In NZ, unless you're already a gold medallist or you play rugby, league, hockey or netball professionally you get almost zero funding.
You train when work allows and between long work hours, dieting, training and track stuff...you're broke.
Also, comp and precomp testing is much more rigorous as well as the ever-present threat of a surprise test.
I understand now they do hormone profiling to get a baseline for your body's natural T and Oestrogen etc etc. Much harder to dodge offseason if your profile suddenly spikes.
Lastly, why? Unless you're making truckloads of cash or will do from juicing it aint worth the money and stress.
No idea how much GWM's on insta and tikok etc get paid...maybe it makes sense.
My $0.02c anyway.
@irsa76 and cdcd, good points.
I was on the WADA anti-doping testing roster for a few years myself. Out of competition mandatories are porous and can be worked around.
But a few things stop you. In NZ, unless you're already a gold medallist or you play rugby, league, hockey or netball professionally you get almost zero funding.
You train when work allows and between long work hours, dieting, training and track stuff...you're broke.
Also, comp and precomp testing is much more rigorous as well as the ever-present threat of a surprise test.
I understand now they do hormone profiling to get a baseline for your body's natural T and Oestrogen etc etc. Much harder to dodge offseason if your profile suddenly spikes.
Lastly, why? Unless you're making truckloads of cash or will do from juicing it aint worth the money and stress.
No idea how much GWM's on insta and tikok etc get paid...maybe it makes sense.
My $0.02c anyway.
Yep BuffBabesRule wrote it correctly. WADA is not perfect but raised the entry level juicing much higher. The only way to circumvent it is a State sponsored dopping program like the Russians did (got caught, disgraced, banned the whole team) or the Chinese who probably still do it.
In individual level you have to be a rich athlete with a huge drug budget but if you get caught you get a career ending ban. All sponsors have doping clauses in their sponsoring contracts so you destroyed your income too. Plus WADA keeps your samples for years for future testing and presumably all medal winners get tested. Random test mean no safe offseason juicing and if I remember correctly you must provide samples within 24 hours once they call you. You cannot disappear for 3 months and run cycles.
This the best antidoping protocol we have at the moment. WADA doesn't have the ability to test everyone but as soon as you post times worthy of international participation or there is a huge jump in your performance, or your look stands out, I am sure you get on their goto list.
Now compare this to any other organization that might do competition day only random testing, or use lie detectors lol. Or even worse protect specific athletes and doesn't want anyone get caught.
Rare exception, most such threads turn into Alice in Wonderland.
From yesterday....Have a laugh .....
Hahahahaha, there's some comedy gold in there! Possibly some denial as well.
Having seen Gabby Fortune's latest pics...gotta say I'm probably taking her out of the 'natural' group...in my mind. She's still thicc and gorgeous but probably P.E.D-ed.
Check out these progress photos from an experienced lifter who's training for an upcoming wellness competition. This is an 8 week cycle of Anavar, 10 mg:
Even people who have somewhat of a clue about female steroid usage vastly overestimate what is possible naturally. Desi Johnson, for example, has 0% chance of being natty. Anybody pretending otherwise is invalidating their credibility.
Check out these progress photos from an experienced lifter who's training for an upcoming wellness competition. This is an 8 week cycle of Anavar, 10 mg:
Even people who have somewhat of a clue about female steroid usage vastly overestimate what is possible naturally. Desi Johnson, for example, has 0% chance of being natty. Anybody pretending otherwise is invalidating their credibility.
I saw that thread! Looks like we hang out in the same subreddit lol.
For some added context, because I am pretty confident someone is going to write "well, maybe her diet and training sucks":
This woman was a high school athlete, and was training seriously with weights for five years before going on her first cycle
She also tracks her macros (which, being in prep, makes sense.)
She dealt with side effects like a stopped period, and moderate acne
Finally, these are good results from an Anavar-only cycle. The response from other commenters with steroid experience has all been positive (if you look like shit, they will tell you,) and seeing and knowing other women who have done Anavar-only cycles, this kind of progress is common. She also reported a 10% increase in strength, which, if we take a completely random one rep max (I have no idea what her lifts actually are,) and she has a max squat of, hypothetically, 225 lbs before her cycle, that's an increase of 22.5 lbs. That's very good for 8 weeks.
I hope seeing the progress pics of that competitor is eye-opening, because the average woman featured on this site is on a lot more than just Anavar. So don't continue to claim that women like Emma Hartley and Mal O'Brien (that is truly laughable) are natural.
there's no way on god's green earth that mal o'brien is natty lmao
what's sad is that she probably doesn't answer to any claims but if they were starting her early, like 17, that's messed up. the fact that she placed 7th in a field of women in their prime and ALSO using in various capacities should tell you something.
there is of course the added variables that every games season is programmed differently, and no two years look the same, so 2022 and 2023 may favor different types of athletes. which of course makes it impressive when people repeate like TCT or Matt Fraser or Rich Froning for years on end.
as an aside, and not that this was surprising at all, but a friend told me about a conversation they overheard at a local gym and it was just two random gym bros, nothing special, not influencers, talking about how much they enjoyed the different between being on vs being off gear. like if a random guy is just doing it "just because" you can bet that anyone with money at stake is going to be using, and these people have made their bread and butter off of how they look.
Gabby's a tricky one. Some women have HUGE legs naturally; with enough heavy squats, perfect nutrition, judging her by her legs, she could actually natty. But her upper body development, huge shoulders, thick and wide pecs, its looking like she's on some kind of PED for sure