Let me ask you a question because I want to understand you. Not upset, just want to understand. I'm not hooking up with anyone, I'm just putting up pictures on a website. Here's my hypothetical: my pictures no longer have any genitalia visible (begrudgingly and sadly I do understand the knee-jerk reaction of revulsion at a girl with a dick - it can be foreign and strange to somebody who isn't used to it). In these pictures I look feminine and "passable". Indistinguishable from other girls on the site. No dick, nothing. Just my muscular female body.
Then they find out I'm trans. Suddenly: why is a man's attraction to me suddenly less than heterosexual? Is it the knowledge that I have a dick? I believe that's a harmful idea to have. It paints me as an "other". This is why a lot of trans people (especially trans people of color) are killed. I get not wanting to see the dick, but merely knowing that I have one shouldn't lessen a straight man's attraction to me. I understand why it DOES, but that's why we want to actively undo that harmful notion. It can be done and it should be done, because I'm just as much a person as you are and I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Just want to show off my hot jacked female body, that's all lol
I'm not saying the pics should be banned, just that there should be a tag or disclaimer so that the people who don't want to look at it can just move on without having to complain.
But as far as people attractions go it's really up to them. Let me ask you this, at what point for you do you think it's okay for straight men to be attracted to a trans woman? You say you posted pics that are indistinguishable from other women but what about the people who aren't? I'm not sure what the terms are but I think its non binary where someone can just look like a straight up man but still identify as a trans woman. This could be someone like Arnold or Rich Pianna making no changes what so ever to their appearance but identifying as a woman. Would you say straight men should still be attracted to them too or should it only apply for the one's who are passable?
At this point I’d say let’s try to celebrate what has been done, rather than complain about what could still be done. Hopefully over time we can find alternative approaches, but right now we have a forum with barely three threads.
I have created a new thread for dressed muscular trans women, but let’s use that forum. Maybe we can create separate threads for each model, but whatever the approach, the forum is there.
appreciate the work u guys are doing. sorry it's such a mess, sincerely. don't want to add fuel to the fire. just want to engage ignorance with some bonafide perspective and clarity as someone who been through a lot of awful shit that stemmed from said ignorance
The people who you call tranphobes and assholes are pretty much the people who are telling you straight up that they're not into it but the vast majority of people who complained in private probably aren't here. Why? Because there are a bunch of people who will tell you what you'd like to hear to your face but behind closed doors they think the exact same thing, and there are even more people who will stay silent on the whole issue but also think the same thing. You can't be entitled enough to tell people to change their whole sexualities just to make your life easier.
Let me ask you a question because I want to understand you. Not upset, just want to understand. I'm not hooking up with anyone, I'm just putting up pictures on a website. Here's my hypothetical: my pictures no longer have any genitalia visible (begrudgingly and sadly I do understand the knee-jerk reaction of revulsion at a girl with a dick - it can be foreign and strange to somebody who isn't used to it). In these pictures I look feminine and "passable". Indistinguishable from other girls on the site. No dick, nothing. Just my muscular female body.
Then they find out I'm trans. Suddenly: why is a man's attraction to me suddenly less than heterosexual? Is it the knowledge that I have a dick? I believe that's a harmful idea to have. It paints me as an "other". This is why a lot of trans people (especially trans people of color) are killed. I get not wanting to see the dick, but merely knowing that I have one shouldn't lessen a straight man's attraction to me. I understand why it DOES, but that's why we want to actively undo that harmful notion. It can be done and it should be done, because I'm just as much a person as you are and I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Just want to show off my hot jacked female body, that's all lol
At this point I’d say let’s try to celebrate what has been done, rather than complain about what could still be done. Hopefully over time we can find alternative approaches, but right now we have a forum with barely three threads.
I have created a new thread for dressed muscular trans women, but let’s use that forum. Maybe we can create separate threads for each model, but whatever the approach, the forum is there.
BTW comments in this thread show why mods have had a hard time knowing how to approach the subject. Even if personally mods might be accepting of trans women, we need to manage the site in a way that doesn’t result in it dissolving into a shit show. Finding the right balance between being lenient and overly strict is hard.
Trans women are women. I'm not picking fights but I'm stating facts. Being trans is not a political statement or lifestyle, it's simply my reality. Having a dick and spending the first 17 years of my life being seen as a dude does not mean that I'm any less of a woman. I have not been perceived as a cis male for over 5 years now and I'll never be seen that way again. I am almost always perceived as a cis woman and I know this because I have experienced the exact harassment cis women face in society (they have told me this). At the end of the day, being visibly queer gives me power. If anyone ITT views me or other trans women as men, it's your problem.
You're free to say such a thing to my face, even. Like other girls on this site I'm stronger than most men. Physical prowess has its place. I don't get huge just for fun (though I do it for that too). I like looking beautiful and powerful. I'd wager my strength is palpable in my words.
Already put my final word on this subject: mods can do whatever they want. But I take a stand when I see transphobia. There's a fuckton of it in the comments. I'm responding to nobody in particular, but if being called a transphobe angers you it's probably because it's true. So I ask you: WHY does it make you angry? If it's because you want to defend the right to see trans women as a "separate" gender from cis women, then... Well, sorry, but you're an asshole! Trans people just want to live and it's people like you that make it so much harder for us to live.
Like I said in my other post this is basically a fetish site and like most porn sites should have a filter or disclaimer when it comes to gay/trans stuff.
The people who you call tranphobes and assholes are pretty much the people who are telling you straight up that they're not into it but the vast majority of people who complained in private probably aren't here. Why? Because there are a bunch of people who will tell you what you'd like to hear to your face but behind closed doors they think the exact same thing, and there are even more people who will stay silent on the whole issue but also think the same thing. You can't be entitled enough to tell people to change their whole sexualities just to make your life easier.
Thought about it for a little and the message above is directed specifically to men who will enjoy a muscular girl and then have negative reactions when finding out that said model or muscular girl that they like is trans. That one goes out just to YOU from my buff ass trans heart. Fuck yourself <3
Trans women are women. I'm not picking fights but I'm stating facts. Being trans is not a political statement or lifestyle, it's simply my reality. Having a dick and spending the first 17 years of my life being seen as a dude does not mean that I'm any less of a woman. I have not been perceived as a cis male for over 5 years now and I'll never be seen that way again. I am almost always perceived as a cis woman and I know this because I have experienced the exact harassment cis women face in society (they have told me this). At the end of the day, being visibly queer gives me power. If anyone ITT views me or other trans women as men, it's your problem.
You're free to say such a thing to my face, even. Like other girls on this site I'm stronger than most men. Physical prowess has its place. I don't get huge just for fun (though I do it for that too). I like looking beautiful and powerful. I'd wager my strength is palpable in my words.
Already put my final word on this subject: mods can do whatever they want. But I take a stand when I see transphobia. There's a fuckton of it in the comments. I'm responding to nobody in particular, but if being called a transphobe angers you it's probably because it's true. So I ask you: WHY does it make you angry? If it's because you want to defend the right to see trans women as a "separate" gender from cis women, then... Well, sorry, but you're an asshole! Trans people just want to live and it's people like you that make it so much harder for us to live.
Speaking as someone who moderated for many years on here, when 80% of the user-base feels lied to, betrayed and has a meltdown because the handful of cropped 1/2 and 3/4 pictures they have previously seen,voted, commented, Favorited turns out to be be a dude. The flood-gates of 1 votes (now days removal of +1) mass reports daily, nasty unending comments which must be policed every five minutes. Its simply not worth the hassle.
Regardless of the verbiage used of dude which many take exception to, you're pinning the problem on the wrong people. The problem you have is that some people have meltdowns if trans women are posted; it causes a moderation headache, I get that.
The issue you're not considering though is that's their own problem. As you illustrated with your A-F examples, people have different tastes. If you can't handle that and feel the need to incessantly complain, that's on you. Instead of simply catering to those people, which is what has been done on this site, the mod team can take action against those users beyond just deleting comments with no further recourse.
Speaking as someone who moderated for many years on here, when 80% of the user-base feels lied to, betrayed and has a meltdown because the handful of cropped 1/2 and 3/4 pictures they have previously seen,voted, commented, Favorited turns out to be be a dude. The flood-gates of 1 votes (now days removal of +1) mass reports daily, nasty unending comments which must be policed every five minutes. Its simply not worth the hassle.
Keep in mind by the original rules, there where very few female bodybuilders even allowed on the site at all. Running or managing any site you need to keep the highest number of people happy. Here is a small list of things people on here get upset about.
A.) People on here get upset when roided bodybuilders girls who are too big allowed on the site
B.) People on here get upset when physique girls who are too big are allowed on the site
C.) People on here get upset when fitness girls who are too big/small are allowed on the site
D.) People on here get upset when figure girls who are too big/small are allowed on the site
E.) People on here get upset when bikini girls who are too small are allowed on the site
F.) People on here get upset when lean naturally muscular girls who are too small are allowed on the site
maybe this is suited for another thread, but a feature that would be nice would be inclusive/exclusive tags in an account. i'm not sure how feasible it is, really, but if i want to see things ABC and not things XYZ, so to curate our feed, this might help to mitigate a lot of this.
as an added bonus, if someone says they don't want to see a transwoman and a photo has been tagged as such we will know they are liars because they are commenting and have the ability to self-curate, at best. at worst they are explicitly leaving it that way to leave bannable comments. idk, maybe too much policing. but the success of social media largely is the ability to self-curate.
I understand the moderation issues. It's eminently practical, but there's something about doing the right thing.
It always amused me when a pic would get posted, guys would geek about the hotness of the model, and then someone would say, "By the way, she's trans." And then the guys who were praising the pic a moment earlier are suddenly grossed out and insist on removal.
I go for the more feminine models (and I've had uploads removed for "lack of muscle"), so this filter probably benefits me on the whole, but still, it's diminishing people's social status. The problem isn't the model; the problem is the people throwing hissy fits.
The main issue here is there is no good solution. No matter what Chainer does, in this context, will upset a large number of people. It isn't a subject has an easy answer or solution. It is a case of we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Up until now, trans-women were not generally permitted on the site, to avoid upsetting people. Having a trans-women category is actually providing more than the site has previously allowed for, so in fact the site is providing a venue that didn't really exist before. You could argue, as asianfitnessfan does, that this is a slippery slope that Chainer has engaged on, but the ground was slick even when it was flat, so it is going to be hard to deal with, even by doing nothing.
GWM is evolving and so is society, so maybe in a few years a different approach will be given? For now, I'd simply ask people to be happy that GWM is trying to work out a compromise, even if it hasn't necessarily found an ideal solution.
Not trying to belittle the point but this is a slippery slope. What’s next moving the large bodybuilders to the forum only because the “look manly” and people “don’t want to see that”. If you don’t want to see it then don’t look at it. The beauty of this site is you can choose to look for/at what you want.
I'm inclined to agree with trapsandcaps' point above.
This sure is a complex issue, especially considering that advanced FBBs are using a extreme forms of hormonal manipulation to change their bodies well beyond how they were born.
Also of concern, how can we know who is "trans" for sure? Sure, some people self identify, but if they don't, we run the risk of baseless accusations and requests for image takedowns based on... what?
I understand Chainer's original point to an extent, but I am concerned this site is getting dragged into an emotionally motivated cultural issue. What percentage of the pictures here would be "trans" anyhow? What about the current system is not working? if some image is completely out of bounds, there is a “report” button.
If I were Chainer, I would be concerned about the real slippery slope, which is the push for "over-curation." Social media feeds only expose people to what they want to see in order to keep them engaged in a little bubble. I suspect many complainers here might not have the emotional skills to negotiate online communities where they might see content that they don’t 100% agree with.
By creating a separate space, you will never keep the snowflakes happy, and you might be putting more focus on this issue and actually magnifying it more than actually necessary...
I think it was pretty much established in that other thread from a few days ago that this is a fetish site so the decision is understandable. Almost every porn site would require you to enable the "gay" option to view their trans videos or at the very least have a tag or disclaimer before you actually watch the video. There should definitely be something in place to separate them so the people who don't want to see it can avoid those posts.
For instance, Star trek and star wars fans don't need to be in the same category just because they both have aliens and space ships.
JFC, what an incredibly dumb comparison. To compare the plights and hardships of trans men and women, which include but are not limited to, stigma, harassment, discrimination and violence (54% of trans people have experienced intimate partner violence and 49% have experience sexual assault) to a science fiction media franchise is dumb at best and tone-deaf at worst. Even if you are against trans women being on the site, to use the justification of “well, Star Wars and Star Trek fans don’t need to be in the same category” shows an incredible display of ignorance.
As a fan of both franchises, may the Galactic Empire and Borg Collective have mercy on your soul.
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What does it matter? Presentation and gender and personality matter more than sex organs anyway
It's simple. NO DUDES. XX chromosomes only. Trans women are not women, if they were you wouldn't need to add "trans".
I'm superstraight and proud of it.
I'm not saying the pics should be banned, just that there should be a tag or disclaimer so that the people who don't want to look at it can just move on without having to complain.
But as far as people attractions go it's really up to them. Let me ask you this, at what point for you do you think it's okay for straight men to be attracted to a trans woman? You say you posted pics that are indistinguishable from other women but what about the people who aren't? I'm not sure what the terms are but I think its non binary where someone can just look like a straight up man but still identify as a trans woman. This could be someone like Arnold or Rich Pianna making no changes what so ever to their appearance but identifying as a woman. Would you say straight men should still be attracted to them too or should it only apply for the one's who are passable?
appreciate the work u guys are doing. sorry it's such a mess, sincerely. don't want to add fuel to the fire. just want to engage ignorance with some bonafide perspective and clarity as someone who been through a lot of awful shit that stemmed from said ignorance
Let me ask you a question because I want to understand you. Not upset, just want to understand. I'm not hooking up with anyone, I'm just putting up pictures on a website. Here's my hypothetical: my pictures no longer have any genitalia visible (begrudgingly and sadly I do understand the knee-jerk reaction of revulsion at a girl with a dick - it can be foreign and strange to somebody who isn't used to it). In these pictures I look feminine and "passable". Indistinguishable from other girls on the site. No dick, nothing. Just my muscular female body.
Then they find out I'm trans. Suddenly: why is a man's attraction to me suddenly less than heterosexual? Is it the knowledge that I have a dick? I believe that's a harmful idea to have. It paints me as an "other". This is why a lot of trans people (especially trans people of color) are killed. I get not wanting to see the dick, but merely knowing that I have one shouldn't lessen a straight man's attraction to me. I understand why it DOES, but that's why we want to actively undo that harmful notion. It can be done and it should be done, because I'm just as much a person as you are and I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Just want to show off my hot jacked female body, that's all lol
At this point I’d say let’s try to celebrate what has been done, rather than complain about what could still be done. Hopefully over time we can find alternative approaches, but right now we have a forum with barely three threads.
I have created a new thread for dressed muscular trans women, but let’s use that forum. Maybe we can create separate threads for each model, but whatever the approach, the forum is there.
BTW comments in this thread show why mods have had a hard time knowing how to approach the subject. Even if personally mods might be accepting of trans women, we need to manage the site in a way that doesn’t result in it dissolving into a shit show. Finding the right balance between being lenient and overly strict is hard.
Like I said in my other post this is basically a fetish site and like most porn sites should have a filter or disclaimer when it comes to gay/trans stuff.
The people who you call tranphobes and assholes are pretty much the people who are telling you straight up that they're not into it but the vast majority of people who complained in private probably aren't here. Why? Because there are a bunch of people who will tell you what you'd like to hear to your face but behind closed doors they think the exact same thing, and there are even more people who will stay silent on the whole issue but also think the same thing. You can't be entitled enough to tell people to change their whole sexualities just to make your life easier.
Thought about it for a little and the message above is directed specifically to men who will enjoy a muscular girl and then have negative reactions when finding out that said model or muscular girl that they like is trans. That one goes out just to YOU from my buff ass trans heart. Fuck yourself <3
Trans women are women. I'm not picking fights but I'm stating facts. Being trans is not a political statement or lifestyle, it's simply my reality. Having a dick and spending the first 17 years of my life being seen as a dude does not mean that I'm any less of a woman. I have not been perceived as a cis male for over 5 years now and I'll never be seen that way again. I am almost always perceived as a cis woman and I know this because I have experienced the exact harassment cis women face in society (they have told me this). At the end of the day, being visibly queer gives me power. If anyone ITT views me or other trans women as men, it's your problem.
You're free to say such a thing to my face, even. Like other girls on this site I'm stronger than most men. Physical prowess has its place. I don't get huge just for fun (though I do it for that too). I like looking beautiful and powerful. I'd wager my strength is palpable in my words.
Already put my final word on this subject: mods can do whatever they want. But I take a stand when I see transphobia. There's a fuckton of it in the comments. I'm responding to nobody in particular, but if being called a transphobe angers you it's probably because it's true. So I ask you: WHY does it make you angry? If it's because you want to defend the right to see trans women as a "separate" gender from cis women, then... Well, sorry, but you're an asshole! Trans people just want to live and it's people like you that make it so much harder for us to live.
Regardless of the verbiage used of dude which many take exception to, you're pinning the problem on the wrong people. The problem you have is that some people have meltdowns if trans women are posted; it causes a moderation headache, I get that.
The issue you're not considering though is that's their own problem. As you illustrated with your A-F examples, people have different tastes. If you can't handle that and feel the need to incessantly complain, that's on you. Instead of simply catering to those people, which is what has been done on this site, the mod team can take action against those users beyond just deleting comments with no further recourse.
Speaking as someone who moderated for many years on here, when 80% of the user-base feels lied to, betrayed and has a meltdown because the handful of cropped 1/2 and 3/4 pictures they have previously seen,voted, commented, Favorited turns out to be be a dude. The flood-gates of 1 votes (now days removal of +1) mass reports daily, nasty unending comments which must be policed every five minutes. Its simply not worth the hassle.
Keep in mind by the original rules, there where very few female bodybuilders even allowed on the site at all. Running or managing any site you need to keep the highest number of people happy. Here is a small list of things people on here get upset about.
A.) People on here get upset when roided bodybuilders girls who are too big allowed on the site B.) People on here get upset when physique girls who are too big are allowed on the site C.) People on here get upset when fitness girls who are too big/small are allowed on the site D.) People on here get upset when figure girls who are too big/small are allowed on the site E.) People on here get upset when bikini girls who are too small are allowed on the site F.) People on here get upset when lean naturally muscular girls who are too small are allowed on the site
maybe this is suited for another thread, but a feature that would be nice would be inclusive/exclusive tags in an account. i'm not sure how feasible it is, really, but if i want to see things ABC and not things XYZ, so to curate our feed, this might help to mitigate a lot of this.
as an added bonus, if someone says they don't want to see a transwoman and a photo has been tagged as such we will know they are liars because they are commenting and have the ability to self-curate, at best. at worst they are explicitly leaving it that way to leave bannable comments. idk, maybe too much policing. but the success of social media largely is the ability to self-curate.
I appreciate Tamarok’s reminder that there can be a flexible approach. Let’s all give our feedback and then give the mods a chance.
^ Yep, and now all kinds of girls with muscle can post here :)
Good call. The site is called "girls with muscle."
I understand the moderation issues. It's eminently practical, but there's something about doing the right thing.
It always amused me when a pic would get posted, guys would geek about the hotness of the model, and then someone would say, "By the way, she's trans." And then the guys who were praising the pic a moment earlier are suddenly grossed out and insist on removal.
I go for the more feminine models (and I've had uploads removed for "lack of muscle"), so this filter probably benefits me on the whole, but still, it's diminishing people's social status. The problem isn't the model; the problem is the people throwing hissy fits.
I agree with this it keeps it separate but still viewable for the people that want to see trans women
The main issue here is there is no good solution. No matter what Chainer does, in this context, will upset a large number of people. It isn't a subject has an easy answer or solution. It is a case of we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Up until now, trans-women were not generally permitted on the site, to avoid upsetting people. Having a trans-women category is actually providing more than the site has previously allowed for, so in fact the site is providing a venue that didn't really exist before. You could argue, as asianfitnessfan does, that this is a slippery slope that Chainer has engaged on, but the ground was slick even when it was flat, so it is going to be hard to deal with, even by doing nothing.
GWM is evolving and so is society, so maybe in a few years a different approach will be given? For now, I'd simply ask people to be happy that GWM is trying to work out a compromise, even if it hasn't necessarily found an ideal solution.
PS This is my personal perspective.
I'm inclined to agree with trapsandcaps' point above.
This sure is a complex issue, especially considering that advanced FBBs are using a extreme forms of hormonal manipulation to change their bodies well beyond how they were born.
Also of concern, how can we know who is "trans" for sure? Sure, some people self identify, but if they don't, we run the risk of baseless accusations and requests for image takedowns based on... what?
I understand Chainer's original point to an extent, but I am concerned this site is getting dragged into an emotionally motivated cultural issue. What percentage of the pictures here would be "trans" anyhow? What about the current system is not working? if some image is completely out of bounds, there is a “report” button.
If I were Chainer, I would be concerned about the real slippery slope, which is the push for "over-curation." Social media feeds only expose people to what they want to see in order to keep them engaged in a little bubble. I suspect many complainers here might not have the emotional skills to negotiate online communities where they might see content that they don’t 100% agree with.
By creating a separate space, you will never keep the snowflakes happy, and you might be putting more focus on this issue and actually magnifying it more than actually necessary...
I think it was pretty much established in that other thread from a few days ago that this is a fetish site so the decision is understandable. Almost every porn site would require you to enable the "gay" option to view their trans videos or at the very least have a tag or disclaimer before you actually watch the video. There should definitely be something in place to separate them so the people who don't want to see it can avoid those posts.
JFC, what an incredibly dumb comparison. To compare the plights and hardships of trans men and women, which include but are not limited to, stigma, harassment, discrimination and violence (54% of trans people have experienced intimate partner violence and 49% have experience sexual assault) to a science fiction media franchise is dumb at best and tone-deaf at worst. Even if you are against trans women being on the site, to use the justification of “well, Star Wars and Star Trek fans don’t need to be in the same category” shows an incredible display of ignorance.
As a fan of both franchises, may the Galactic Empire and Borg Collective have mercy on your soul.