Trans women are women, who cares if they have a ding dong?
No one cares really, they can do whatever they want. However you will never convince 98% of the people that trans women are women because they are not. Dont expect people who havent been indoctrinated to buy into this delusion. Trans women are still prone to MALE pattern baldness. You can believe what you want but dont exepct others to follow along.
Do you not think the fragility of someone's sexual preferences is something for them to figure out on their own..." Of course, that is what they are are doing with this website. They signed up for "girls with muscle dot com" because they were seeking a very particular combination, muscles and vaginas. They have done some exploring and they are clear about what they like and don't like and they found a website to cater to their specific interest. I'm not agreeing with their BS and I understand "girl" has a meaning beyond genital selection, but that's the basis for their argument. They feel they can exclude you because they always have before.
"Shielding people is just dumb, it's what leads to these stigmas in the first place." That's a great point, hadn't considered it that way.
Then they find out I'm trans. Suddenly: why is a man's attraction to me suddenly less than heterosexual? Is it the knowledge that I have a dick? I believe that's a harmful idea to have
First, I just wanted to say I'm really sorry for what you're facing here (and in the real world). I know your question wasn't to me but I figured I could offer a perspective.
The issue is, the definition of a gender is subjective, and society is in deep disagreement. The shit show in this thread shows that.
For many, gender is immutable and cannot change. Is this right or wrong? Again, subjective. Unfortunately, men who hold this belief will be repulsed by a trans woman even if they initially found them physically attractive. This doesn't mean their preference is wrong, just that there are multiple facets to attraction and for some, transgenders are a deal breaker.
This is definitely the case for me. I've found many attractive women who turned out to be trans, and simply couldn't see them the same way anymore. Is it transphobic? I won't kid myself, yes it is. That's what the word means, by definition. But is that hatred and intolerance? I don't believe so. The media conflates (something)-phobia to be equal to hate and intolerance, and in my opinion that has been one of the worst hidden obstacles to the LGBT community.
You cannot reasonably expect people to be comfortable with everything, and hostility/demands to the contrary make the problem worse. Personally, I really do want to see trans women as true women - I symphathize with their identity issues. But at this time I just can't.
It's analogous to people with extremely disfiguring disabilities. I feel for them, and wish I could have a physical attraction that isn't marred by something out of their control. But I just can't.
It paints me as an "other". This is why a lot of trans people (especially trans people of color) are killed. I get not wanting to see the dick, but merely knowing that I have one shouldn't lessen a straight man's attraction to me. I understand why it DOES, but that's why we want to actively undo that harmful notion.
I get the problem with exclusion. That said, why shouldn't having a dick put off a straight man's attraction? Sexual preference is a deeply personal thing. You cannot expect people to unilaterally change their opinions just to solve the problem of exclusion for a specific group.
Hell, this site is a living example of the individuality of preference, and just how much it varies across the board. Many people in society see muscle as masculine, and thus the women here as manly. Many more myself included instead see them as attractive, a sign of strength, vitality, and willpower. It's no more reasonable to expect men to be attracted to transwomen than it is to expect the whole of society to see the women here as beautiful.
Either way, just because much of society sees the women here as unattractive doesn't mean I will change my lifelong opinion of the contrary. The same applies to transwomen - there are people attracted to them, and the opinions of people like mine just don't matter.
It can be done and it should be done, because I'm just as much a person as you are and I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Just want to show off my hot jacked female body, that's all lol
I don't deny you or any other transgendered individual is a human being and person. Nor do I see you as any less worthy or capable. But I just don't have an attraction to such individuals. That doesn't mean I cannot sympathize or have a desire for you to succeed.
I believe society as a whole should be more understanding, tolerant, and accepting, but expecting people to change their sexual preferences to do so is wildly unrealistic. Sexual preference is primal, hatred is learned. To move forward with LGBT acceptance, in my opinion people need to embrace their preferences - even if it excludes a group - and instead learn to avoid acts of hatred. Clearly we have a long way to go on that second point.
I agree: Mr. Awesome and a few others, your responses have been low quality and unhelpful.
I don't have time to respond right now but probably will later.
Here are posts with Mr. Awesome not too subtly being homophobic:
You do realize these are the people you're going to bat for with a decision like this, right? Instead of simply deleting comments so they can just do it again next opportunity and encouraging this kind of segregation, why not actually do something about it where you identify a user like this as the problem?
I support Van and the other trans girls on the site and other uses like them and Qwerty and Asianfitnessfan have made very articulate points that I don't have the energy or ability to try and match
As a cis/straight/boring dude, though, the science is not really the issue here. The issue is people come to this site expecting to use it as a porn site will get upset because they jerked off to someone they thought was a woman but perceive to be a man and they must feel cheated or even that their consent was violated in a way because they thought they were looking at girl with a vagina but there was a "secret" penis or "secret" history as a man they didn't know about which makes them upset and throws into question their own conception of their sexual orientation. There is a fragility to people's sex psychology and I think it can be confusing or upsetting to them to not be able to categorize people into two neatly defined boxes. So I can understand the response, even if it is bigoted, to feeling like you are shopping for peaches but keep finding bananas in your grocery cart, so to speak. I honestly don't know how to address their concern in a way that doesn't otherize trans folk. Maybe it is callous to view it as a consent issue, I don't really know.
I really don't understand why this train of thought needs to be catered to. The consent thing is its own discussion entirely, you could go all day on something like the absurdity of the gay panic defense. But that's not even what we're talking about, we're literally just talking about viewing pictures on the internet here. If someone is so insecure that they can't handle coming across a tiny percent of the site's images that are trans women, that's on them to figure out. Do you not think the fragility of someone's sexual preferences is something for them to figure out on their own without resorting to trying to get others' preferences cordoned off to some obscure corner of the site? Shielding people is just dumb, it's what leads to these stigmas in the first place.
Muscular women here who get tons of likes regularly encounter transphobic comments in the real world. The people saying transwomen are not women seem to ignore that the vast majority of women on this site consume male hormones. Some are so roided that they unquestionably (in my view) appear more masculine than transwomen.
I forget her name, but a woman who is very tall -- 6'2" -- said she stopped off at a gas station to ask for a key to the women's bathroom. She has visible muscle tone, but she's by no means unusually buff by the standards of this site (in part because of her towering height). She was given grief by the gas station attendant for "being a man."
I think there should be two components: feminity and muscularity. There are outrageously beautiful women who do not belong on this site because they lack visible muscle tone. In my view, there are some women, natural-born women, who have over-done it on the juice, but I understand that there's a diversity of tastes in this community. I definitely don't want to see dong bulges (that goes against feminity!), but if someone is female-passing (and has visible muscle tone), then what's the big deal?
The science is pretty clear. Chromosomes are not the be all/end all. Neither is genitalia. As someone said, what's "between your ears" matters just as much. I am far from an expert but there are various genetic expressions and hormone issues at play, and the spectrum of gender seems to point to pansexuality becoming the norm because the more you accept people's differences, the more you are open to all forms of human sexuality.
As a cis/straight/boring dude, though, the science is not really the issue here. The issue is people come to this site expecting to use it as a porn site will get upset because they jerked off to someone they thought was a woman but perceive to be a man and they must feel cheated or even that their consent was violated in a way because they thought they were looking at girl with a vagina but there was a "secret" penis or "secret" history as a man they didn't know about which makes them upset and throws into question their own conception of their sexual orientation. There is a fragility to people's sex psychology and I think it can be confusing or upsetting to them to not be able to categorize people into two neatly defined boxes. So I can understand the response, even if it is bigoted, to feeling like you are shopping for peaches but keep finding bananas in your grocery cart, so to speak. I honestly don't know how to address their concern in a way that doesn't otherize trans folk. Maybe it is callous to view it as a consent issue, I don't really know.
For me, I'm not attracted to faces that look masculine or voices that sound masculine, which is entirely subjective to my own experience, and I move on pretty quickly from those pictures. I don't think a lot about people's hormone levels so if a beautiful girl turns out to have a history as a man, I'll be a bit confused but it's not going to bother me at all. I like what I like and if that includes non-binary than so be it. However, I think people should be comfortable being themselves on this site and not hide certain parts of their body, because then it really does seem like you are trying to represent yourself as something that you aren't. I know there are huge amounts of people that are into exactly the kind of gender fluid content we are talking about, and it makes sense to give them a place within this site to engage with that content. Therefore, I think the change Chainer made is an appropriate step towards welcoming more people into the site. Porn sites allow you to find what you like based on all kinds of demographics, so that may be appropriate here too.
It's easy to point to a poster like Mr. Awesome in here. Here's an opportunity for the mods to actually enforce something on someone who is just openly being transphobic posting the same comments over and over again and not trying to hide it. Instead of catering to this type of poster by simply deleting their comments and bending the rules so you don't have to deal with additional reports, why not actually do something about where you enforce something against them?
This is a suckass conversation, gotta admit. People want to bog everything down in hate and cherrypicked science because they fear both their own desires and other people being happy because they're not happy themselves.
Trans people have always been here and we're not going anywhere, so you might as well enjoy the ride :)
... I am almost always perceived as a cis woman and I know this because I have experienced the exact harassment cis women face in society (they have told me this). At the end of the day, being visibly queer gives me power. If anyone ITT views me or other trans women as men, it's your problem.
Aaaand that's the only reason they know you're a trans woman. Unless a person self identifies, then how does anyone know from a few pictures on this site?
I think some folks might be working through the reality that they might be presented with "trans" images and not realize it.
Sometimes the way we want the world to fit into neat little categories just won't work. So, do we adjust our thinking, or accuse the world of having a problem?
Thanks. I'm glad you've distinguished and separated those born as men (or whatever the correct term is). What a terrible disservice it is to the actual women of the sport (just as is occurring in other sports) to lessen their achievements.
I've no desire to cause harm to those who wish to pursue feminine characteristics, but I am also made sad that we live in a society that's being reprogrammed to self-destruct.
Genitalia is not what distinguishes a man from a woman. It's between the ears as well. If you don't understand that statement, I can only assume you've had limited life experiences.
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No one cares really, they can do whatever they want. However you will never convince 98% of the people that trans women are women because they are not. Dont expect people who havent been indoctrinated to buy into this delusion. Trans women are still prone to MALE pattern baldness. You can believe what you want but dont exepct others to follow along.
I guess I used the quotation wrong in my last comment. Everything after the ellipses is my comment.
"Shielding people is just dumb, it's what leads to these stigmas in the first place." That's a great point, hadn't considered it that way.
First, I just wanted to say I'm really sorry for what you're facing here (and in the real world). I know your question wasn't to me but I figured I could offer a perspective.
The issue is, the definition of a gender is subjective, and society is in deep disagreement. The shit show in this thread shows that.
For many, gender is immutable and cannot change. Is this right or wrong? Again, subjective. Unfortunately, men who hold this belief will be repulsed by a trans woman even if they initially found them physically attractive. This doesn't mean their preference is wrong, just that there are multiple facets to attraction and for some, transgenders are a deal breaker.
This is definitely the case for me. I've found many attractive women who turned out to be trans, and simply couldn't see them the same way anymore. Is it transphobic? I won't kid myself, yes it is. That's what the word means, by definition. But is that hatred and intolerance? I don't believe so. The media conflates (something)-phobia to be equal to hate and intolerance, and in my opinion that has been one of the worst hidden obstacles to the LGBT community.
You cannot reasonably expect people to be comfortable with everything, and hostility/demands to the contrary make the problem worse. Personally, I really do want to see trans women as true women - I symphathize with their identity issues. But at this time I just can't.
It's analogous to people with extremely disfiguring disabilities. I feel for them, and wish I could have a physical attraction that isn't marred by something out of their control. But I just can't.
I get the problem with exclusion. That said, why shouldn't having a dick put off a straight man's attraction? Sexual preference is a deeply personal thing. You cannot expect people to unilaterally change their opinions just to solve the problem of exclusion for a specific group.
Hell, this site is a living example of the individuality of preference, and just how much it varies across the board. Many people in society see muscle as masculine, and thus the women here as manly. Many more myself included instead see them as attractive, a sign of strength, vitality, and willpower. It's no more reasonable to expect men to be attracted to transwomen than it is to expect the whole of society to see the women here as beautiful.
Either way, just because much of society sees the women here as unattractive doesn't mean I will change my lifelong opinion of the contrary. The same applies to transwomen - there are people attracted to them, and the opinions of people like mine just don't matter.
I don't deny you or any other transgendered individual is a human being and person. Nor do I see you as any less worthy or capable. But I just don't have an attraction to such individuals. That doesn't mean I cannot sympathize or have a desire for you to succeed.
I believe society as a whole should be more understanding, tolerant, and accepting, but expecting people to change their sexual preferences to do so is wildly unrealistic. Sexual preference is primal, hatred is learned. To move forward with LGBT acceptance, in my opinion people need to embrace their preferences - even if it excludes a group - and instead learn to avoid acts of hatred. Clearly we have a long way to go on that second point.
Here are posts with Mr. Awesome not too subtly being homophobic:
You do realize these are the people you're going to bat for with a decision like this, right? Instead of simply deleting comments so they can just do it again next opportunity and encouraging this kind of segregation, why not actually do something about it where you identify a user like this as the problem?
I support Van and the other trans girls on the site and other uses like them and Qwerty and Asianfitnessfan have made very articulate points that I don't have the energy or ability to try and match
I really don't understand why this train of thought needs to be catered to. The consent thing is its own discussion entirely, you could go all day on something like the absurdity of the gay panic defense. But that's not even what we're talking about, we're literally just talking about viewing pictures on the internet here. If someone is so insecure that they can't handle coming across a tiny percent of the site's images that are trans women, that's on them to figure out. Do you not think the fragility of someone's sexual preferences is something for them to figure out on their own without resorting to trying to get others' preferences cordoned off to some obscure corner of the site? Shielding people is just dumb, it's what leads to these stigmas in the first place.
Muscular women here who get tons of likes regularly encounter transphobic comments in the real world. The people saying transwomen are not women seem to ignore that the vast majority of women on this site consume male hormones. Some are so roided that they unquestionably (in my view) appear more masculine than transwomen.
I forget her name, but a woman who is very tall -- 6'2" -- said she stopped off at a gas station to ask for a key to the women's bathroom. She has visible muscle tone, but she's by no means unusually buff by the standards of this site (in part because of her towering height). She was given grief by the gas station attendant for "being a man."
I think there should be two components: feminity and muscularity. There are outrageously beautiful women who do not belong on this site because they lack visible muscle tone. In my view, there are some women, natural-born women, who have over-done it on the juice, but I understand that there's a diversity of tastes in this community. I definitely don't want to see dong bulges (that goes against feminity!), but if someone is female-passing (and has visible muscle tone), then what's the big deal?
The science is pretty clear. Chromosomes are not the be all/end all. Neither is genitalia. As someone said, what's "between your ears" matters just as much. I am far from an expert but there are various genetic expressions and hormone issues at play, and the spectrum of gender seems to point to pansexuality becoming the norm because the more you accept people's differences, the more you are open to all forms of human sexuality.
As a cis/straight/boring dude, though, the science is not really the issue here. The issue is people come to this site expecting to use it as a porn site will get upset because they jerked off to someone they thought was a woman but perceive to be a man and they must feel cheated or even that their consent was violated in a way because they thought they were looking at girl with a vagina but there was a "secret" penis or "secret" history as a man they didn't know about which makes them upset and throws into question their own conception of their sexual orientation. There is a fragility to people's sex psychology and I think it can be confusing or upsetting to them to not be able to categorize people into two neatly defined boxes. So I can understand the response, even if it is bigoted, to feeling like you are shopping for peaches but keep finding bananas in your grocery cart, so to speak. I honestly don't know how to address their concern in a way that doesn't otherize trans folk. Maybe it is callous to view it as a consent issue, I don't really know.
For me, I'm not attracted to faces that look masculine or voices that sound masculine, which is entirely subjective to my own experience, and I move on pretty quickly from those pictures. I don't think a lot about people's hormone levels so if a beautiful girl turns out to have a history as a man, I'll be a bit confused but it's not going to bother me at all. I like what I like and if that includes non-binary than so be it. However, I think people should be comfortable being themselves on this site and not hide certain parts of their body, because then it really does seem like you are trying to represent yourself as something that you aren't. I know there are huge amounts of people that are into exactly the kind of gender fluid content we are talking about, and it makes sense to give them a place within this site to engage with that content. Therefore, I think the change Chainer made is an appropriate step towards welcoming more people into the site. Porn sites allow you to find what you like based on all kinds of demographics, so that may be appropriate here too.
I agree: Mr. Awesome and a few others, your responses have been low quality and unhelpful.
I don't have time to respond right now but probably will later.
There are 1,050,600 images on this site. Are they all your type?
^ 👍
It's easy to point to a poster like Mr. Awesome in here. Here's an opportunity for the mods to actually enforce something on someone who is just openly being transphobic posting the same comments over and over again and not trying to hide it. Instead of catering to this type of poster by simply deleting their comments and bending the rules so you don't have to deal with additional reports, why not actually do something about where you enforce something against them?
This is a suckass conversation, gotta admit. People want to bog everything down in hate and cherrypicked science because they fear both their own desires and other people being happy because they're not happy themselves.
Trans people have always been here and we're not going anywhere, so you might as well enjoy the ride :)
Aaaand that's the only reason they know you're a trans woman. Unless a person self identifies, then how does anyone know from a few pictures on this site?
I think some folks might be working through the reality that they might be presented with "trans" images and not realize it.
Life is not black and white everybody.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/se...
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/201...
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condition...
Sometimes the way we want the world to fit into neat little categories just won't work. So, do we adjust our thinking, or accuse the world of having a problem?
Thanks. I'm glad you've distinguished and separated those born as men (or whatever the correct term is). What a terrible disservice it is to the actual women of the sport (just as is occurring in other sports) to lessen their achievements.
I've no desire to cause harm to those who wish to pursue feminine characteristics, but I am also made sad that we live in a society that's being reprogrammed to self-destruct.
Genitalia is not what distinguishes a man from a woman. It's between the ears as well. If you don't understand that statement, I can only assume you've had limited life experiences.