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Ah yeah, I wasn't clear. I'm talking about attraction.
The original post was "should non-binary people be included on GWM?"
This isn't a dating site, but it is a visual thirst trap site, so the more relevant question is how attractive the person is vs. how they would work out in a long term relationship.
My assertion is that:
(1) Feminine people with muscles - including trans and NB women - have a place on this site and could have a prominent and enjoyable role in our community. A lot of them are really freaking hot.
(2) Finding a very feminine person attractive is a distinctly heterosexual impulse when you're a man. Presentation can be - and in many cases is - more powerful than chromosomes and genitals. If you're a straight guy, then there's nothing shameful about finding Daisy Taylor hot. Just like there's nothing shameful about finding FBB's hot.
(3) Most heterosexual guys would be radically more attracted to Daisy Taylor than one of the more masculine muscle women in our scene. Someone like Rheta West. Honestly.. I'd wager that most guys would probably be more attracted to Daisy than they would be to Vladi Galagan. At least based on pics and video. Not as a dating or long term relationship prospect.
and the rules say no (mainsite) and yes (forums) and aren't changing, im not sure why this keeps on being a point of contention.
My goodness me. It is amazing how something so simple, natural and generated by DNA can become so complex and blown out of all proportion. I suppose it's just another reason why my wife and I much rather deal with our so-called dumb beasts rather than Humans.
and the rules say no (mainsite) and yes (forums) and aren't changing, im not sure why this keeps on being a point of contention.
To be fair, I bring it up a lot. I'm get on my soap box for a second and then I'll be content sitting back down.
I think that these rules were shortsighted and needlessly discriminatory. Instead of telling some guys to STFU and just deal with it, all the trans women got put in this sleazy hidden section. Said guys could simply look at the other 10 million free photographs, but a couple trans pics sends them into a meltdown.
If this was a site dedicated to blonde women, then I'd find this decision out of touch and bigoted.
However, on a site populated with women who routinely shoot testosterone to 4x the level of an 18yo male varsity football star... its frankly ridiculous, often times hypocritical, and stunningly inconsistent.
It's also sadly hilarious when a trans woman gets posted here - who looks wholly indistinguishable from the other women on the site - and then her pics have to get deleted with a quickness because she might have genitals that we'll never see anyway because nudity isn't allowed.
I'm get on my soap box for a second and then I'll be content sitting back down.
Three Doritos later...
Instead of telling some guys to STFU and just deal with it,
If you take that action as a valid alternative...then don't complain if it ends up being used on you.
^^ Exhibit A
We could be inclusive and inviting and get some awesome new attractive and muscular people on the site. There's lots more Cleo Mercury's out there across the gender spectrum. And they're amazing.
Instead, you're making this guy happy by protecting his "basic human need" to be exclusively turned on by things that make him feel 100% secure in himself. And if something violates that.. it's definitely not something that he could just address inside himself.
Interesting choice.
Three Doritos later...
If you take that action as a valid alternative...then don't complain if it ends up being used on you.
I don't mind being told to STFU. It's happened before. Plenty of people on here agree with me, and debating this is kind of a hobby.
Also worth nothing that we are living in a glorious time of p0rnographic content. Just 25 years ago you'd have to ask for this kind of stuff in a weird ass little store. Or buy a magazine at Waldenbooks or whatever.
With SO much material available without gatekeeping or judgement, I always encourage people to go out and explore. It's okay to have turnoffs... there's plenty of girls on here who I find honestly repulsive... but I don't get the impulse to ban the models and take them away.
And as Zarkle says... if you get accidentally aroused by an image of someone trans or male.. why feel shame over that? Who knows? Who cares? Are you getting together with your best friends to browse GWM and keep tabs on who gets a boner?
Like geez.. the world is freaking difficult enough. If something turns you on that doesn't usually turn you on, you don't need to look into it too much. Men are horny. I know that I am LOL.
Then maybe a summary is in order.
Sexuality is in reality a quite sensitive topic, even though it may not feel like that here. People generally wish to know what they're being turned on by. Otherwise there might be lots of shame and confusion. Trans activists as a rule utterly disrespect this basic human need and sensitivity, even going to lengths to shame others for it.
This is related to about total prevalence of cluster B personality disorders, half the time narcissism, among those who transition not for the reason of a medical intersex condition but autogynephilia, which is the fetishization of the opposite gender to the extent of wanting to become it. This is why I'd rather even discuss nuking the entire trans section instead of their inclusion on the main site, though I don't expect that to happen either.
It's this utter disregard for others and the unrelenting desire to be fetishized that makes them not take no for an answer. Being trans is a fetish of its own, separate from all the others. Very few people are actually into it and the rest have good and valid reasons to consider it uncanny, which the trans people naturally fail to grasp, marginalizing their oppontents by calling them the vocal few.
That or call them something catchy like TERFs when women and lesbians try to protect the spaces and accomplishments of their sex from biological male usurpers.
And that vocal few is just an outspoken sample of the silent majority who came to see Girls with Muscle, not Trans Girls with Muscle. Niche topics on the forum is the right compromise to entirely disqualifying trans imagery.
OoooOoOOo this is-a goona be-a SPICY-a thread!!!
I really called that one! Now if you don't mind, I'm goona go take my shameless ass to the infinitum of the porno-sphere to browse all things trans-man, trans-woman, BBW, FBB, MILF,GILF, and gay. Because ya know, I may stop here for a cool refreshing glass of [GIRLS WITH MUSCLE], but being a pansexual no labels kind of guy I don't need nor want this place to be more than it advertises. If I want anything beyond the borders of my expectations I will seek it somewhere else. It's only a click away. For those who want intersex GWM, find it. If it dosent exist, create it, then monetize it if the market demand is there. Mods made it clear what their stance is. I just don't understand what the goal of the debate is beyond rehashing old debates...
It will never not be funny that testosterone is the primary driver of male secondary sex characteristics. Second to chromosomes, it’s the single most important thing that makes men, male.
The average man is about 400 to 800 Ng/dl
The average FBB will juice to over 1200. Some up to 2000.
Yet guys will swear up and down that there is zero intersectionality between the sexes inherent in this sport and scene.
Alright, alright, alright…
It will never not be funny that testosterone is the primary driver of male secondary sex characteristics. Second to chromosomes, it’s the single most important thing that makes men, male.
The average man is about 400 to 800 Ng/dl
The average FBB will juice to over 1200. Some up to 2000.
Yet guys will swear up and down that there is zero intersectionality between the sexes inherent in this sport and scene.
Alright, alright, alright…
Buy a clue already.
Someone's sex is either male or female, or they have some biological abnormality.
This is a site that caters to fans of biological female bodybuilders, not of biological males claiming female gender.
If it was all about testosterone and male sex characteristics, viewers would be going to see the Men with Muscle website instead of Girls with Muscle.
Make your own trans or "non-binary" muscle worship website if that representation so important to you.
Muscle_Toez - I agree with where you are logically but where I fall off is the end goal. You may want intersex individuals to be on the main site, I do not. Not because of my own interests, but because I recognize that my desires are undoubtedly a small minority on here. The trans forum is the outlet provided here, so you CAN post the content you want, with a sympathetic like minded community. Pushing for more makes this an argument about representation and quite frankly, this isn't the site for that. The high minded debate about hormones and gender is a sideshow. The main site is sexy fit women with a scale of overly feminine bimbos to short haired women who basically are hormonally men (Dylan Crenshaw?). Still, even with those who make the cut of "feminine enough" ,the overwhelming majority on here dosent want what you're proposing. But with that nebulous scale of feminity means is just post what you want to post. If it survives and dosent get reported then voila! You just snuck a intersex person into the site. What you aren't going to do is change the main body of individuals perspectives to fit yours.
Muscle_Toez - I agree with where you are logically but where I fall off is the end goal. You may want intersex individuals to be on the main site, I do not. Not because of my own interests, but because I recognize that my desires are undoubtedly a small minority on here. The trans forum is the outlet provided here, so you CAN post the content you want, with a sympathetic like minded community. Pushing for more makes this an argument about representation and quite frankly, this isn't the site for that. The high minded debate about hormones and gender is a sideshow. The main site is sexy fit women with a scale of overly feminine bimbos to short haired women who basically are hormonally men (Dylan Crenshaw?). Still, even with those who make the cut of "feminine enough" ,the overwhelming majority on here dosent want what you're proposing. But with that nebulous scale of feminity means is just post what you want to post. If it survives and dosent get reported then voila! You just snuck a intersex person into the site. What you aren't going to do is change the main body of individuals perspectives to fit yours.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. At this point, I'm not trying to get anyone onto the site. But it's interesting for me to challenge people's thought processes, and I've been DM'd quite a few messages of support.
What you said it very telling though. It is entirely possible to "sneak" a trans person onto this site because - visually - many trans bodybuilders look indistinguishable from the other women on here.
This isn't going to be the case for a traditional beauty pageant, right? There's lots of conventionally pretty trans women, but that often requires quite a bit of surgery and genetic luck. But a buff trans woman can look the same as a buff cis women.. simply because testosterone is so profoundly altering on someone born female.
Here's a trans bodybuilder that I found. I'm linking her rather than posting her, so click on the link at your own risk. You will see a smiling powerful trans woman with great abs and arms in a sports bra:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FlexinLesbians/comme...
She's pretty and feminine. IMO she fits right in here. I struggle to see what the harm is by viewing her photo. I get that guys are nervous about being tricked into a date with a trans person, or intimacy with a trans person.. but are guys really that scared of simply looking at a clothed pic of a trans person flexing their muscles? I promise that admiring her abs doesn't make you gay. Guys admire Chris Bumstead's muscles all the time, and that doesn't make them gay either. No one is meeting this trans girl or honestly any of the other women on here.
For guys who are resolutely against trans women on the site... if you look at that picture, what is your worst case scenario? What's the worst possible harm from that?
Here’s a question:
Why is it necessary to include it, here, in this space, that has bounds that haven’t changed, and clearly won’t. What battle are you trying to win?
I’m not being combative, I promise, but sometimes I like nice neat boundsries and rules around things that I do and like. But this being a “females only” site seems to nearly as taboo as a “whites only” site. But if this was a “blacks only” site for posting no one would bat an eye. Again, I promise I’m not being combative but if that is TRULY a space you want to have you have all the freedom in the world to craft it on your own
The same 4-6 users being this up at least once a quarter with a different flavor and with the same result. Sometimes the answer is “I don’t want to do it this way”. Il literally leaving work early because there is a drag show happening for pride month and I know I’ll get one or two questions about why. “I don’t want to” should suffice, just like I didn’t want to go to the last company event that wasn’t even themed.
Here’s a question:
Why is it necessary to include it, here, in this space, that has bounds that haven’t changed, and clearly won’t. What battle are you trying to win?
The voice of the minority cannot be the voice of the majority.
There is a legal definition as to what a "girl", "woman", and "female" are.
Circumventing these definitions to suit the tastes of a few does not sound democratic.
Again, I promise I’m not being combative but if that is TRULY a space you want to have you have all the freedom in the world to craft it on your own.
Agreed. Instead of creating a space, say a subreddit or another website, they'd rather flood this site with what they want to see.
Now, to those with this preference, to each their own. Seriously.
Here’s a question:
Why is it necessary to include it, here, in this space, that has bounds that haven’t changed, and clearly won’t. What battle are you trying to win?
I’m not being combative, I promise, but sometimes I like nice neat boundsries and rules around things that I do and like. But this being a “females only” site seems to nearly as taboo as a “whites only” site. But if this was a “blacks only” site for posting no one would bat an eye. Again, I promise I’m not being combative but if that is TRULY a space you want to have you have all the freedom in the world to craft it on your own
The same 4-6 users being this up at least once a quarter with a different flavor and with the same result. Sometimes the answer is “I don’t want to do it this way”. Il literally leaving work early because there is a drag show happening for pride month and I know I’ll get one or two questions about why. “I don’t want to” should suffice, just like I didn’t want to go to the last company event that wasn’t even themed.
Gonna push back on a few of these points from both parties
1) I'm not "flooding" anything. I've never uploaded a pic of anyone other than a cis woman. I've never started my own thread about the trans exclusion issue.
2) I bring up my viewpoint when others create a relevant thread. This one - not started by me - is about non-binary bodybuilders, so seems that discussing trans people isn't too much of a leap.
3) When threads about trans/NB people are started, there's lots of guys who come in to crap on them and naysay and put out bigoted viewpoints. That's their right. But you can't wander into a thread for an argument but then also complain that I'm expressing my viewpoint. If trans/NB people are so repulsive to you, I'd think you'd maybe avoid threads about them. Maybe you wouldn't waste your time talking or thinking about it.
4) But no.. that's actually not how it works. Anti-trans people are often obsessed with being anti-trans. A lot of time I engage in these discussions because that's honestly so fascinating to me. And it has extra significance on this site where traditional gender-bending through hormones and presentation is absolutely baked into the female bodybuilding culture.
Anyway, I'm not that attracted to trans people personally. I'm actually quite binary as a bisexual, and I like male equipment on male bodies.. especially if that male body is Alan Ritchson from Reacher. But note that I'm not freaking out when I see their pics or demanding that the images be removed.
And I do recognize that the things said about trans people in 2024 are pretty similar to the things said about black people in 1964. So I advocate for them to be included.
I mean i am certainly inclined to believe there have been a few users over the last 2 years who start up threads like these to rile shit up (I actually haven’t looked at who opened this thread).
I also think my experience has been in terms of removals that the reports themselves have been rather bland. Hasn’t really been any spicy texts alongside the report. It’s mostly the usual suspects on that end of the discussion too in the forums. This thread has been particularly lightly moderated but is nowhere near has bad as the worst that have popped up and got nuked.
The reality too is there aren’t that many trans postings. I think half have been self post attempts. Now, how reporters know if someone is trans is their own business
I will push back on the black comparisons. I will always be black for the rest of my life. If you are trans you might be thinking of taking measures to physically match your gender identity and it is very much a process of change. If you are “passing” you will likely reap the same benefits and downsides of a cis person. But GWM is not denting anyone of any intrinsic rights or privileges or services.
Ah yeah, I wasn't clear. I'm talking about attraction.
The original post was "should non-binary people be included on GWM?"
This isn't a dating site, but it is a visual thirst trap site, so the more relevant question is how attractive the person is vs. how they would work out in a long term relationship.
My assertion is that:
(1) Feminine people with muscles - including trans and NB women - have a place on this site and could have a prominent and enjoyable role in our community. A lot of them are really freaking hot.
(2) Finding a very feminine person attractive is a distinctly heterosexual impulse when you're a man. Presentation can be - and in many cases is - more powerful than chromosomes and genitals. If you're a straight guy, then there's nothing shameful about finding Daisy Taylor hot. Just like there's nothing shameful about finding FBB's hot.
(3) Most heterosexual guys would be radically more attracted to Daisy Taylor than one of the more masculine muscle women in our scene. Someone like Rheta West. Honestly.. I'd wager that most guys would probably be more attracted to Daisy than they would be to Vladi Galagan. At least based on pics and video. Not as a dating or long term relationship prospect.