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note: user was banned for this comment -chainer
Person1 (trans woman): could you please call me "woman"?
Person2 (cis man) : absolutely not!!!You are a male!!!
P1: well, it's about sex and gender, but ok. But I am post-op. I have a vagina. Could you please call me "woman", or trans woman at least?
P2: bwaaahhh! Not at all!!! You born man, you are a man to me! I have the right to call you man!
P1: sigh....if only I've been born a cis man...
P2: bwaahhh!! Not cis man, man! I cry!!! You irrespectful! I have the right to be called as I wish!!!
😑
Above comment earns a ban. The point of "doesn't seem fair that you insist on being called a certain way while calling me something I don't want to be called" is fine to make, but you could have just said it straightforwardly.. The ban is for the inflammatory caricature of "p2".
So i guess people talking about "bullshit" and "shit" refferring to this poll up in the early posts are straightforward enough not to earn a ban...
So i guess people talking about "bullshit" and "shit" refferring to this poll up in the early posts are straightforward enough not to earn a ban...
usually the line is crossed when it's directed at someone specifically or, in the last comment's case, inflammatory toward the other end of the discussion. I need to look but i don't think any bans were handed out until teenbbr went off on a multi quote spree there but if any of the bullshits or shit comments are specifically in ref to a user/users (rather than the poll itself) we can take care of it
usually the line is crossed when it's directed at someone specifically or, in the last comment's case, inflammatory toward the other end of the discussion. I need to look but i don't think any bans were handed out until teenbbr went off on a multi quote spree there but if any of the bullshits or shit comments are specifically in ref to a user/users (rather than the poll itself) we can take care of it
Sorry just don't understand how calling the entire poll "bullshit" or "gender ideology crap" won't be inflammatory toward the other hand of discussion. I am a mod in other forums and i know how difficult mod role can be, but i have the bad feeling there is someway a double standard of modding this post toward queer-antiqueer position. So, if i write about "antiqueer ideology crap" that is not considered referred to a group of users? Anyway, thanks for your explanations
i have the bad feeling there is someway a double standard of modding this post
Seriously? You don't think any of the mods could have asked OP privately, "Hey, would you mind turning down the temp a little by just adding 'man' and 'woman' to the option list?"
Sure, modding is tough, but I strongly disagree IF it's your position that they are NOT letting participants mostly have our say, no matter which "side" people may or may not be on.
For the poster who said "I don't subscribe to gender and sex being different things. Why do we need gender?" It doesn't matter whether you subscribe to it or not, it's science. Gravity doesn't care if you subscribe to it either, it's still real regardless of your feelings.
Those are not my feelings, these are my believe systems based on what I've read and looked up, this is something that I was taught in Uni back in the day, thoughts and feelings are different, I think gender identity is BS, but I feel when met with the request from someone to use preferred pronouns I'd gladly comply our of respect... But respect is not unilateral, I respect you and I expect to be given it back, whether or not that happens, tough luck... NOW! If you read closely on my analisis of the origin of the differentiation between sex and gender, the experiment made by who proposed it provided the opposite result, but that's not to say that therefore, gender is completely eroded, I think sex can be seen as the biological reality of people, it's generally binary and effectively inmutable, but the mind is different, it's not farfetched for me to think someone can identify as the opposite, but is there an influence of sex in the "gender" identity? I think so, that's why, like I said, I believe sexual dysphoria is real and the prerequisite for transhood, the "gender" identity of something that goes through that experience has a major obstacle... Biological and material reality, so of course you'd feel distressed! You have the opposite genitalia you feel and think you should have, and your genes will make you go through the distressing changes from child, whom appears to be closer amongst sexes, to an adult where sexual dimorphism is more noticeable... But even this is tricky cause pretty much everyone goes through this, adolescence is distressing, so how you identify someone with the actual conditional prerequisite to require transition from a group of angst y teens? Why does this matter? Well, even though detransitioners are liked to be diminished for the sake of some people's argument, they're still a thing, people who felt that they were trapped in the wrong body and when through the procedures to change sex... But then they realize that was not the case, but it's too late they can no longer go back... Cause you know, as I'm saying sex seem to matter in one's "gender" identity
You say it's science... Yeah, it's flawed science, remember when people thought the world was the center of the universe? And then Galileo proved otherwise? The consensus changed, you're right if tomorrow someone proves somehow that gravity doesn't exist... We wouldn't suddenly start floating cause there is a distinction in science for ideas, they are theories or laws, the geocentric solar system wasn't based on formal science but it was regarded as the most accepted theory, when it changed it actually changed how we think about the universe, cause it's not science's job to provide certainty, it is its goal sure but it's not what it does, now gravity is different, gravity is a law, the universe is undeniably affected by it, ancient greek scholars thought that what we know as gravity was objects being in love with earth itself, that's why they moved towards it, and things remained sorta like that until newton came and made it law, no, it's just a force that seems to be inherit of reality itself, proving that gravity can be measured, doesn't change the existence of gravity itself but it changed how we see it... Heck Newton gave it a name, it always existed but know we have veritable ways to interact with it other than myths. Gender more specifically the whole separation from sex, as I said, is a theory, it can be disproven but it wouldn't change gender, it'd change how we see it.
I urge the Moderator not to ban people over their comments even if they don't contribute to the arguments, it is freedom of speech, everyone has the right to say whatever, it is up to the reader to take something from each comment, in a debate no one is silenced, they are made aware that the argument deviates from the topic and then encouraged to get back into it.
I urge the Moderator not to ban people over their comments even if they don't contribute to the arguments, it is freedom of speech, everyone has the right to say whatever, it is up to the reader to take something from each comment, in a debate no one is silenced, they are made aware that the argument deviates from the topic and then encouraged to get back into it.
they're all temp bans, they'll all be back. just be a better commentor is all!
This is all very entertaining and insightful but I think there should be a followup question after all this...
Is anyone's mind changed?COULD your mind be changed on this or is this belief too tied to your own identity be it man or cis man?
People don't compromise ideologies like compromising on a tax policy. But if I were to offer a compromise I would just say call a trans-person by their name if you aren't sure, or if youre not sure, just avoid using gendered titles like ma'am or sir. In fact, anyone who's worked service industry as called a bulky woman "sir" and died inside as she corrects you, or maybe asked a adolescent boy with long hair "what can I get you today young lady" only to have the kid bury his face in his hand as his friends laugh at him knows misgendering is embarrassing for everyone involved. And that's what it's about to me, people just wanted to feel like they can walk around in public and be respected or at least not humiliated by strangers. It just seems decent to make a small effort to be respectful for someone who has made such a life altering choice. Insisting on a 2 gender world outlook still gives the freedom to be polite to people who are different, to tolerate differences and still respect their choices. HOWEVER....
I live in rural America, town of 1500 nearest big box store is 17miles away. It's a very very very tall order to ask people who have zero contact with trans people to be changed overnight or even over years with media, forum debates, or public awareness campaigns. It's going to take time, and maybe never. So I'm saying as an ally, ya'll gotta grow some skin and accept its going to AT BEST be a few generations down the road before this becomes normalized. The uneducated on gender studies can always fall back on layman's logic penis=man vagina=woman and I don't mean that to be denigrating. Most people,99%, grow up happy with their anatomy, and never have to consider beyond that. The current media spotlight, visibility campaigns whether on TV or music, adverts, etc. forces people to feel the need to take a side or an opinion, and if you're a man who loves his dick like most of us do, it's easy to see why it's a simple choice.
Trolls aside people on here are pretty civil, and I feel like would manage to be polite if we'd cross paths, regardless of our views. Let's all remember why we are here peeps
@RndmDisclaimer I'm genuinly curious why do you wanna know what gender is everyone here?
I mention it a while back in the thread but I'll just explain it all a bit more coherently here. So GWM and female bodybuilding in general are really interesting to me in an academic sense.
We have a group of (predominantly) cis women taking anabolic/androgenic compounds that result in increased muscle mass and also create virilizing effects. In this way, we're in a sort of liminal space when it comes to gender, with these women who still (mostly, see Laura Perazzo who identifies as nonbinary) identify as women but have traditionally masculine traits. Much of society has considered women, even natural women, to "look like men" if they have a significant amount of muscle mass, let alone those who have enhanced their muscle mass through AAS. Natalia Trukhina even takes estrogen blockers to maintain her muscle mass. These are actions a lot of trans people do to affirm their gender. Trans women block estrogen and take testosterone, trans men block testosterone and take estrogen. But still, they're not trans. It's an interesting space that, like I said, plays with gender in a lot of ways!
And then we have the users of GWM. From the comments it was clear to me that most people here were obviously cis men, but I want to understand how these men see and conceive of gender in others and themselves because of their attraction to women using PEDs. I know for me personally, my attraction to muscular and masculine women in some sense stems from a sort of admiration or envy, a desire to be more like them. I've seen a lot of comments expressing similar viewpoints over the years.
So for me, I wanted to know how many trans or gender nonconforming people used this site. I subdivided men and women into cis and trans, not to exclude or invalidate, but to get a peek at how many trans users existed compared to cis users. This was just a starting point for me, I wanted to explore more of what people felt in a more qualitative way, but wanted to have a baseline idea of the general categories people fell into.
Hope this answers your question!
it certainly does, I'm intereted as well, what makes someone like me (as stated in previous comment that I'm a man in the traditional sense) like a woman who partakes in activities and seeks to change her body in ways similar to men, aka get jacked yo! What attracts me about seeing tradictional male traits on a female? I thnink there really is a sexual basis for one's gender identity, but society and even one's self identification makes for a more nuanced identity, after years of fawning for muscular women, I have come to realize I'm not only attracted to muscle on them but I'm also attracted to boyish behaviour, I'm so into tomboys, but I still think of this girls as what they are, women, for me they have to still be biologically women, perhaps i'm attacted to such women cause I'm generally a pretty shy, meek and agreable man, it's up to me to find that out. and yeah! hormones in this case are quite a curious thing to discuss, after all FBBs use male hormones to attain supraphysiological levels of musculature, trans-men do the same, albeit with the goal to pass as their desire sex identification, so I agree it's worth disecting. I'd argue it comes to the goals of each person, a trans-man wants to pass as a man, cause that's what they feel they are, an fbb wants the muscle cause her sport demands it.
Seriously? You don't think any of the mods could have asked OP privately, "Hey, would you mind turning down the temp a little by just adding 'man' and 'woman' to the option list?"
Sure, modding is tough, but I strongly disagree IF it's your position that they are NOT letting participants mostly have our say, no matter which "side" people may or may not be on.
I think mods just spoke up about that. As they spoke up about why some post have been banned and some other have not. The last ones being much more inflammatory than others that have been banned in my percepition. But hey, their site, their decisions. If I cannot handle that, i can just log off. As you can.
it certainly does, I'm intereted as well, what makes someone like me (as stated in previous comment that I'm a man in the traditional sense) like a woman who partakes in activities and seeks to change her body in ways similar to men, aka get jacked yo! What attracts me about seeing tradictional male traits on a female? I thnink there really is a sexual basis for one's gender identity, but society and even one's self identification makes for a more nuanced identity, after years of fawning for muscular women, I have come to realize I'm not only attracted to muscle on them but I'm also attracted to boyish behaviour, I'm so into tomboys, but I still think of this girls as what they are, women, for me they have to still be biologically women, perhaps i'm attacted to such women cause I'm generally a pretty shy, meek and agreable man, it's up to me to find that out. and yeah! hormones in this case are quite a curious thing to discuss, after all FBBs use male hormones to attain supraphysiological levels of musculature, trans-men do the same, albeit with the goal to pass as their desire sex identification, so I agree it's worth disecting. I'd argue it comes to the goals of each person, a trans-man wants to pass as a man, cause that's what they feel they are, an fbb wants the muscle cause her sport demands it.
Yeah, I think I made a similar point about how FBBs were still women. Of course they're still women! I don't think it's just because the sport demands it. Bodybuilders don't just start bodybuilding simply because they want to win something. They have to enjoy their appearance at some level and give them a sense of validation. In queer spaces, this is akin to gender euphoria, or feeling harmony between one's body and one's gender identity.
Female bodybuilding, in many ways, tears down a lot of traditional gender norms for women, and my thought would be that would make the primary audience more open to upending gender norms as well. And if anything, I think a vocal minority is very opposed to this. There are hundreds of votes on the poll but only maybe 20 or so people who have had strong negative reactions. Certainly a significant portion but not a majority by any means.
I also have a final thing to say regarding men vs cis men. I do NOT aim to make anyone feel like "less of a man". Being attracted to female bodybuilders is still pretty taboo, and I know a lot of us have faced shame and embarrassment for our normal, human sexual desires. Many people on here I am sure have been made to feel like they are not "real" men because they prefer women who are more masculine. Let me just vehemently say, that is total bullshit. You are a man because you are a man. Your sexual desires do not invalidate your gender.
I find it kind of sad to see such a negative backlash, because in a lot of ways, the queer movement also wants to liberate non-queer people from strict gender stereotypes as well. We don't want men to feel they can't be emotional or vulnerable. We don't want men to feel that they have to be physically strong and muscular. We don't want men to feel that they have to be dominant or into petite and very feminine women. We want all people to have the freedom express themselves and their sexuality in a free, safe, and respectful way. We want it to be okay for a man to say, "I really like FBBs!" and not have to face shame for their desires.
Anyway, I hope some of y'all read this and truly understand my deep sincerity here. I want this to be a positive space for everyone.
Peace and love
Yeah, I think I made a similar point about how FBBs were still women. Of course they're still women! I don't think it's just because the sport demands it. Bodybuilders don't just start bodybuilding simply because they want to win something. They have to enjoy their appearance at some level and give them a sense of validation. In queer spaces, this is akin to gender euphoria, or feeling harmony between one's body and one's gender identity.
Female bodybuilding, in many ways, tears down a lot of traditional gender norms for women, and my thought would be that would make the primary audience more open to upending gender norms as well. And if anything, I think a vocal minority is very opposed to this. There are hundreds of votes on the poll but only maybe 20 or so people who have had strong negative reactions. Certainly a significant portion but not a majority by any means.
I also have a final thing to say regarding men vs cis men. I do NOT aim to make anyone feel like "less of a man". Being attracted to female bodybuilders is still pretty taboo, and I know a lot of us have faced shame and embarrassment for our normal, human sexual desires. Many people on here I am sure have been made to feel like they are not "real" men because they prefer women who are more masculine. Let me just vehemently say, that is total bullshit. You are a man because you are a man. Your sexual desires do not invalidate your gender.
I find it kind of sad to see such a negative backlash, because in a lot of ways, the queer movement also wants to liberate non-queer people from strict gender stereotypes as well. We don't want men to feel they can't be emotional or vulnerable. We don't want men to feel that they have to be physically strong and muscular. We don't want men to feel that they have to be dominant or into petite and very feminine women. We want all people to have the freedom express themselves and their sexuality in a free, safe, and respectful way. We want it to be okay for a man to say, "I really like FBBs!" and not have to face shame for their desires.
Anyway, I hope some of y'all read this and truly understand my deep sincerity here. I want this to be a positive space for everyone.
Peace and love
I partly agree on your first point, cause most people start their fitness journey not thinking of gearing up, they want to slim down, get swole, be healthier, get that beach bod, it is when weightlifting stops being your regular fitness routine and it becomes competitive (powerlifting, pro bodybuilding) that hormone enhancement becomes more prevalent... or at least more significant, cause it is known that the majority of roid user are actually casual lifters, mainly men, and yes there are natural categories on bodybuilding but the most profitable require you to get into ZE JUICE, so of course there's an emotional factor into it, you feel and look good when you're on it but the competitive and monetary aspect pull quite hard as well.
regarding female bodybuilding, I couldn't agree more, the first formal female bodybuilding shows came out in the 80's if I'm not mistaken, right after the sexual revolution that spanned from the late 60's and throughout the 70's, it's a testament of women breaking the norms, unfortunately in it's conception it was seen by some as a novelty and let's be honest, there's some objectivization in the community even to this day, but despite this bitter side, I wanna think that some girls do feel inspired by our beloved athletes and I'm all for that.
I'm not quite sure why you made the connection between the Cis thing and liking bodybuilders and the stigma it comes with, I think most of the problems with the term cis comes from your bonafide red blooded average joe being introduced with the term and all that comes behind it seemingly out of the blue, you have to consider, regular folks are not aware that queer and gender theory exist and people tend to be lazy to look up things, such are the times we live in, i've stated before, I reject Cis and non-binary status cause i've done my own research and frankly it doesn't commune with what I consider logical, but that's me, and I'm still open to discuss these topics with opposing worldviews, I think, the way you posed your poll and considering the intelectual context it brings with it, it does require the term Cis, whether I like it or not, some guys are more vehemently confrontational about it.
it really is sad that the stigma still exists, I fortunately have been met with support from my closest relatives when I decide to bring out my tastes, but this is not the case for lots of folks, and yet despite my positive experiences I still feel teh need to keep it a secret, less so than before. Even though I don't subscribe to your believes I do share the same desire, I want men and women who doesn't fit the mold to feel ok with it, for society to acknowledge that despite the majority working as usual, that there will be exceptions to the rule, and that's ok, it happened with gay people, I grew up in a time of acceptance, years after the time they were persecuted, and I looked up how marginalized they were and how as I grew up, the intolerant people were diminishing until they became the minority. but nowadays I've seen intolerance spring out again, but now from both sides, some people are more vocal about their distaste for the LGBT community with stuff like "they are crazy, they're groomers" and such, but from the other side we also get ostriszed by some radicals, and they throw around these new terms as slurs sometimes, or at least in a condescending way and rejecting any input from let's say "white heterosexual cis men", I believe armony is achieved trough healthy discussions and mutual respect and openness and it won't work if each side is shuting down the other with their ideological predispositions (cause guess what you righties you're ideologues too, you too have buzzwords and nonsensical stands)
I am a Vampire. I love veiny muscular women full of blood pumping in their big muscles and with visible veins in their necks.
Yes! That's as jacked as I've ever seen Renee get.
While the intense discussion moves along, I just checked the current results of the poll responses and the picture slowly coming into view is intriguing.
A deep dive:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/sa-visua...