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> > Tbh 0.01% is a bit too high for her, just add 2 more 0 to that. 1 in a million, maybe even less considering what she started with. I wasn't thinking about giving the right number, just playing devil's advocate. But also contemplating what's, even though only very remotely, possible.
Mate you are totally wrong. The chance of Lea Shreiner being natural is the same as meeting a mermaid in your next visit to the beach.
Not hating, everyone is entitled to an opinion, what is you experience with weight training and/or drugs. How do you draw conclusions on the subject?
I do weight training but have always been natty, contemplating about starting trt but have never done it. But you don't need to have an extensive knowledge on that alone. There is a lot of genetic variance, so much that you mever know what is possible 100%, hence why that small number. Women do have less genetic variance than men because that's how our species has evolved, and mostly because females are the ones who do the selection. But a small chance is always there, saying 100% not possible means not considering quite a few things. Some might even be the only 1 in 7 billion people for that matter... The chances are so low that you might as well think they are on drugs.
Women do have less genetic variance than men because that's how our species has evolved, and mostly because females are the ones who do the selection.
This is often under-appreciated. As Roy Baumeister has remarked, "Males are nature's way of rolling the dice."
Yet another way of looking at is to note that the most extreme genetic outliers might be more likely to use PEDs. What percentage of elite and near-elite athletes are just simply around PEDs versus Joe No-Six-Pack? Assume a female who is super-efficient at building muscle (and has aesthetic muscle bellies). Some of these women might resent their "man arms" and refuse to train, but let's further assume that our hypothetical lady loves them and goes at them hard. She's in a bro-dominated culture. She learns how to diet and train from men. Her boyfriend is almost certainly bigger than she is -- and she's an extreme genetic outlier. Why wouldn't she also use PEDs? People tend to underestimate how contagious behavior is. Add competition to the mix, whether it's cheap trophies, pro-cards, follower counts, or OF subscribers, and people will easily talk themselves into doing illegal drugs.
Y'all need to stop with this "genetic outlier" shit. There are women with elevated levels of testosterone due to various conditions, but never to the point where it'd allow them to become this muscular without gear. Shanique Grant, for example, is clearly a genetic outlier and yet she looks like a completely different person when she's off cycle. Something like a myostatin deficiency could explain a similar physique, but that's an extremely rare condition and it'd be obvious from the start. Anything else is bro science and wishful thinking.
Talking to a number of friends about this, the general concensus is anyone who is in the gym for sport or because of their livelyhood is likely to be using something. One lady I've known for many years used to be an elite soccer player in high school, she and other girls on the team were experimenting with steroids then. She started using anavar when she was 17 and that wasn't unusual. Another friend was a competitive ice hockey player in her early 20s, again, everyone was using, she was actually the supplier for a couple of years. One lady I know has been running and coaching powerlifting gyms for the last 10-15 years. She's natty by choice, but she knows alot of the girls she coaches aren't, her only request is that if people deal or use PEDS they don't openly do it in her gym. Another lady I know started using PEDS recently and was surprised how many women at her gym use, and it's a womens only gym. A couple of guys that work for me either currently use or have used, all say it's alot more common than people think. One guy admits his girl friend was the one that convinced him to do a cycle because she didn't want to do one by herself!
Y'all need to stop with this "genetic outlier" shit. There are women with elevated levels of testosterone due to various conditions, but never to the point where it'd allow them to become this muscular without gear. Shanique Grant, for example, is clearly a genetic outlier and yet she looks like a completely different person when she's off cycle. Something like a myostatin deficiency could explain a similar physique, but that's an extremely rare condition and it'd be obvious from the start. Anything else is bro science and wishful thinking.
Bingo.
Let’s put it this way: if you are a serious lifter at a competitive level, and hang out with and around other serious lifters, you will find out very, very quickly just how common PED use is in strength sports.
So for those who don’t believe that the vast majority of ladies here are on them, I implore yourself to immerse yourself in that world.
Talking to a number of friends about this, the general concensus is anyone who is in the gym for sport or because of their livelyhood is likely to be using something. One lady I've known for many years used to be an elite soccer player in high school, she and other girls on the team were experimenting with steroids then. She started using anavar when she was 17 and that wasn't unusual. Another friend was a competitive ice hockey player in her early 20s, again, everyone was using, she was actually the supplier for a couple of years. One lady I know has been running and coaching powerlifting gyms for the last 10-15 years. She's natty by choice, but she knows alot of the girls she coaches aren't, her only request is that if people deal or use PEDS they don't openly do it in her gym. Another lady I know started using PEDS recently and was surprised how many women at her gym use, and it's a womens only gym. A couple of guys that work for me either currently use or have used, all say it's alot more common than people think. One guy admits his girl friend was the one that convinced him to do a cycle because she didn't want to do one by herself!
I keep saying the same thing on every one of these PED threads. Non fitness people just don't seem to understand just how widespread PED use is. PEDs are everywhere.
Half the women at my gym are using PEDs and most of them are built like Celine Dion.
The only way I’ll consider someone an outlier is if they have unbelievable proportions that can’t be duplicated
What about Dylan Crenshaw? She's genetically thick, and never ripped, but good mass. If she didn't say otherwise I would think she's natural.
Original Dylan... I think so.
Current Dylan... probably not. A HUGE tell in the world of women juicing is having even moderately defined thighs at higher bodyfat. Typical female estrogen levels will usually keep fat in the thighs and hips, and if you're seeing quads pop out and separate like in the photo below - despite her overall BF% - then she's probably been doing at least light cycles.
And I say this with zero judgement. Good for her if she is. If I was in charge, I'd make PED's totally legal and accessible, and celebrate them for the absolutely incredible scientific achievement that they are.
And, here's another guideline. Have you seen threads where guys brag about their wife or GF getting "really into lifting" and then post a photo of a bicep or a quad which looks clearly strong but also totally unremarkable?
That person is natty.
Pretty much every single photo of every single model on this site is not natty, with very rare exceptions.
So, do any of you actually have any Natty GWM's you want to propose?
Propose not propose to by the way, before you get too excited.
Yeah it is possible for most women, but it seems like even the "small" ones might use drugs to save time. Does this prove that steroids can replace (or more precisely, reduce) hard work?
It's both. A natural lifter will experience significant gains at first, but those quickly taper off, and eventually become so small that a "hard limit" is eventually reached (could be after 5 years of lifting, could be after 10 years, with minimal gains for the last few years). PEDs allow one to keep gaining muscle throughout and at a much higher rate. Hence, a natural lifter could get to where a PED user is after just a couple of months in the span of several years, but once the PED user has moved past the natural limit, there is no catching up regardless of time investment. For females in particular, the natural limit is reached quite soon, and beyond that PEDs become a simple necessity if further muscle gain is desired.
PEDs replacing "hard work" is a myth. If anything, PEDs allow one to push much harder in the gym, so to get the full benefit out of them, even more effort is required. When not enough effort is put in, you get people who look DYEL despite running surprisingly big stacks.
Yeah it is possible for most women, but it seems like even the "small" ones might use drugs to save time. Does this prove that steroids can replace (or more precisely, reduce) hard work?
Yes and no. It's a question that has more complexities than most of the popular narratives allow. Mostly with men, you sometimes see the term "natty achievable" when shown a picture of a physique that, while possible to achieve naturally, may be enhanced. It might be a lifter who shows off "extreme" progress after, say, a year, compared to a natural lifter who looks the same but got there after 5 years of lifting. In that case, you could make the argument that the steroids "reduced" the hard work and time commitment required to get that physique.
However, and I am noting the physiques of the women here since that is where the topic of this conversation is, for the VAST majority of women featured here, there is no amount of "hard work" that can be undertaken to achieve the results we see here naturally. There are limits to the human body, especially in women, when it comes to building muscle, and unfortunately, I think sites like this warp our realities on what is possible without using drugs. That being said, building a physique like the top bodies featured here takes a combination of GENETICS, PEDs, hard training, nutrition and recovery. In reference to the above paragraph, while I know personally very built men and women who use PEDs and train hard, I also know a lot of guys who use them but train and eat like shit and thus don't look great. Genetics is also a huge factor when it comes to building muscle and strength, and most importantly, and in determining how well they respond to PEDs in terms of results and mitigation of negative side effects. I know a guy who started a beginner PED cycle and lost quite a bit of his hairline. Meanwhile, you have people like peak Dani Reardon who use quite a bit and display minimal side effects (she didn't really have a deepened voice or many signs of virilization.
The whole idea of "steroids are a shortcut!" is a half truth. Yeah, for some it is, but for others, it's a necessity to get that build. Also, a key aspect of steroid use is quicker recovery. This allows somebody to train HARDER and more frequently than a natural competitor. A natural lifter who tries to mimic an enhanced lifter's routine will probably regress as best due to not recovering enough between session, or at worst wind up getting injured since, again, their bodies aren't recovering like an enhanced lifter's.
Edit: if I may be so bold (and please correct me if you disagree,) I think, outside of ignorance of how prevalent PED use is from users here who might not be active in strength sports. I think there are two reasons why there is so much denial concerning drug use.
some dudes who have a fetish for strong women have that fueled by the belief that women in general are getting stronger than guys, and learning that PEDs are pretty much essential to get the strength and musculature that they are attracted to ruins that fantasy.
Some guys who are in relationships with non-muscular women who have this fetish want their SO to lift and build muscle, but they know that it will be much harder to convince them to use steroids versus just getting them to lift naturally.
PEDs replacing "hard work" is a myth. If anything, PEDs allow one to push much harder in the gym, so to get the full benefit out of them, even more effort is required. When not enough effort is put in, you get people who look DYEL despite running surprisingly big stacks.
They did a controlled study on this. What they found was that PEDs+lifting yielded the big gains as you say, but PEDs alone yields more gains than lifting alone.
I feel like we’re doing good work with this thread.
I’ve made this point before, but just to be super clear…
Remarkable aesthetic muscle hypertrophy requires a lot of testosterone. Period.
Some males have the combination of both genetics and test levels to support this naturally. Almost no females do.
But luckily, we created these incredible drugs that allow females to grow strong, large muscles too. Awesome muscular physiques are accessible to everyone and we should celebrate that.
It’s not cheating. It’s a scientific achievement. It still requires incredible amounts of work and discipline, but PED’s are to fitness and bodybuilding what helmets are to football. Required equipment.
They did a controlled study on this. What they found was that PEDs+lifting yielded the big gains as you say, but PEDs alone yields more gains than lifting alone.
What. Link to this study?
What. Link to this study?
I'm familiar with a similar study, but I think he's getting the details wrong.
IIRC, the study demonstrated that using steroids without lifting would still increase muscle mass and reduce body fat. It did not demonstrate that using steroids without lifting would build more muscle than lifting without steroids because that doesn't make sense.
It’s not cheating. It’s a scientific achievement.
It's an article of faith here, the local party line, something that "we all know," that the PED use rate is 100% and not .000001% less, among participants in all sports in which PEDs are forbidden, and in Crossfit, where they are also. 11,500 athletes competed in the 2021 Olympic games and 11,500 of them were cheating. (And this isn't counting the horses; our PED assessors here haven't provided a ruling about whether the horses used in the equestrian events and modern pentathlon were on PEDs.) Something over 106,000 women and 347,000 men submitted a full set of scores for the Crossfit Open (and here I'm only counting those in the "open" under-35 men's and women's divisions, not the age-group, special-abilities, or occupational categories)--that's 453,000 cheaters. (In fact, almost all of them have not hope of and presumably don't expect to qualify for the worldwide Crossfit games or even the "quarterfinals, limited to the top 10%; but the doctrine isn't that all competitive Crossfitters, or qualifiers to the Crossfit games semifinals, are PED abusers, but that "everyone who does Crossfit" is a PED user.) It's hardly plausible that every PED user in an Olympic sport qualified to the 2020 games and that every non-user didn't--there must be many more cheaters among those who competed at national qualifying competitions but did not win places at the games. Thousands more cheaters*. And we haven't yet counted the winter Olympics, world championships in the Olympic sports, and organized non-Olympic sports. The numbers here do, I am sure, greatly overshadow the numbers of bodybuilders competing in events where illegal use of controlled substances is welcomed and encouraged.
Many, perhaps not all, of the "performance-enhancing" substances proscribed by the International Olympic Committee and its constituent sport-specific federations, and by the Crossfit organization, are controlled substances. Their sale is forbidden in most countries (for Anavar, I think it's all but Iran and Turkey) and possession is illegal in the U.S and many other countries. You can't use without possession, so use of these substances is a felony in the U.S. and crime of some description in other countries--464,5000+ people who are criminals in addition to being liars and cheaters. That includes the police officers who "do Crossfit" or compete at the Olympics.
Lol damn, tell us how you really feel.
Any other laws get you super hyped up?
What about Dylan Crenshaw? She's genetically thick, and never ripped, but good mass. If she didn't say otherwise I would think she's natural.