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(except the part where you equate legalising drugs with legalising murder)
I think you're a reasonable person, but I don't know how you can infer that I am equating legalizing drugs to legalizing murder. That would mean I'm saying legalizing drugs is as bad as legalizing homicide. Let me be clear: It's not. What I'm saying is that state consequences matter -- for homicide, for drug use, and a range of other activities, frivolous and non-frivolous. I chose homicide because most of us are probably not stopped from committing murder because of a law; we're self-regulating, so it's tempting to (mistakenly) infer the law has no effect, but on aggregate it certainly does. It's tempting to think the earth is flat, but we know otherwise.
But it's horribly naive to think professional sports are about "fostering healthy competition"
Again, this isn't what I said. I said we should want to foster healthy competition, not that sports are about healthy competition (though I think that's also normatively defensible).
Ironically bodybuilding is more fair than baseball or football because of the lack of drug testing.
Well, yes, in a sense, games that have no rules are perfectly fair. And if we killed everyone in the world, we could end human suffering. If there are no rules, then paying a confederate to knee-cap your opponent isn't against the rules. Civil society insists on rules for the same reason it insists on moderation for any decent platform: without such rules, things quickly devolve to pornography and chaos.
But I think we have to accept the reality of professional sports (including bodybuilding).
I think that's consistent with what I've said. The rules banning PEDs are not (realistically) about eliminating PED use. They're about limiting PED use (and abuse). This is at the heart of the expression, "We cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
I think you're a reasonable person, but I don't know how you can infer that I am equating legalizing drugs to legalizing murder. That would mean I'm saying legalizing drugs is as bad as legalizing homicide. Let me be clear: It's not. What I'm saying is that state consequences matter -- for homicide, for drug use, and a range of other activities, frivolous and non-frivolous. I chose homicide because most of us are probably not stopped from committing murder because of a law; we're self-regulating, so it's tempting to (mistakenly) infer the law has no effect, but on aggregate it certainly does. It's tempting to think the earth is flat, but we know otherwise.
Ok that's fair, I'm still curious why you even brought up murder (which surely 100% of people agree should be illegal) but I understand your point.
To reiterate, I'm on your side here. I understand you want to best for everybody, I do too.
But as long as the current pro sports model is in effect, it doesn't matter. Money talks, and drug rules only enhance this (I notice you didn't refute this part of my reply)
Returning to the topic of bodybuilding, moot point. There are no drug rules and likely never will be.
I'm still suggesting a legalize solution (with heavy taxes, similar to a much more dangerous drug, alcohol)
But.. I totally see what you're saying, and again I mostly agree.
> They were just the ones that MLB threw under the bus. You can't tell me that those 3 are the only ones using PED in baseball.
I know they aren't the only ones. But those three are some of the greatest baseball players of all time and their careers are seen in a different light now even though they absolutely dominated the game for as long as they have.
My main point was that bodybuilding is weird. The US hosts the most famous bodybuilding competition in the world (Olympia) and all of the competitors that step on stage are on PED's. But PED's and various types of steroids are illegal in the US. There is a bit of hypocrisy as for many years people outside of bodybuilding and fitness admired Arnold's physique and quoted Ronnie Coleman's workout videos like, "light weight" and "yeah buddy". But to achieve that notoriety, something that is sacrilege in baseball is needed in bodybuilding. Just my $ 0.02
I've judged and hosted a few amateur bodybuilding competitions in Chicago and truth be told that the amateurs were on PED's. They really wanted to win the big prize money which was in the range of $2500 and more for men and women get far less. I believe the women prize money was $1200 and more. Some of the married women competitors even slept with some of the judges to win favors.
Amazing how progressive society has gotten and yet there's still this.
Anyways, please continue.
LOL yeah it's true.. the prize money is usually skewed like that. The people running these shows are just shameless. They're not even trying to project the illusion of equity.
The overall sport of bodybuilding is as sexist as it comes, and it's unbelievably difficult for women to truly earn a living from it. Hence all of the emphasis on Onlyfans and endorsements and sales commissions.
Why would there be even prize money? Which do you think attracts more people? Sorry but generally..womens bodybuilding is tiny sideshow. What you think the the olympia should have women get same as the open class bodybuilders? Lmao
Real question. When you're smugly downplaying the legitimacy of female bodybuilders on a website dedicated to female bodybuilding... is that irony totally lost on you?
Seriously, the sexist attitudes that I see on here are mind blowing at times. Just proves that even if a woman gets strong enough to lift the front of an SUV, there's still guys who will value them only as sex objects, and always consider their accomplishments to be second-class.
While you're at it, please be sure to (1) credit their physiques entirely to steroids (2) ridicule and shame the female athletes that you don't personally find attractive and (3) somehow bash trans people even though there are no trans people allowed in the galleries here. Then you'll have all the GWM bases covered!
Why would there be even prize money? Which do you think attracts more people? Sorry but generally..womens bodybuilding is tiny sideshow. What you think the the olympia should have women get same as the open class bodybuilders? Lmao
Crass, but not without a point. Contestants and spectators pay, so, in a sense, it's fair for the winner of the show that brings in more people to earn more money. The fighters in the undercard do not get paid the same as the guys in the main event. Even the guys in main event do not get paid the same if a "name" fighter is bringing in more butts. Remuneration in the entertainment industry is different than other sectors of the economy. It's often feast or famine.
It's not reducible to sexism: Jennifer Lawrence got paid twice as much as Chris Pratt for their shitty sci-fi movie. His character had more screen time, but she was the bigger draw.
Crass, but not without a point. Contestants and spectators pay, so, in a sense, it's fair for the winner of the show that brings in more people to earn more money. The fighters in the undercard do not get paid the same as the guys in the main event. Even the guys in main event do not get paid the same if a "name" fighter is bringing in more butts. Remuneration in the entertainment industry is different than other sectors of the economy. It's often feast or famine.
It's not reducible to sexism: Jennifer Lawrence got paid twice as much as Chris Pratt for their shitty sci-fi movie. His character had more screen time, but she was the bigger draw.
To be fair, it's a common theme in most sports. I wouldn't be surprised if female gymnasts significantly out-earn their male counterparts too.
That doesn't make it any less wrong. This system only persists because we accept the reasons that you put forth. If there was a requirement to pay FBB's the same as MBB's, you wouldn't see the sport of bodybuilding go bankrupt and fail.
You'd see a hell of a lot more effort to promote women's bodybuilding. It doesn't need to be a "tiny sideshow." It's just not a priority for the event organizers. When a sports franchise is motivated to promote something, believe me, they will.
If there was a requirement to pay FBB's the same as MBB's, you wouldn't see the sport of bodybuilding go bankrupt and fail.
Unlike some other moral claims that can be difficult to litigate, here you're making an empirical claim, and it's by no means obviously true. More likely than not, it's false. These shows in general are shady-as-hell (see above), and I'm sure the promoters would love to make as much money as possible, even if it meant pretending to be enlightened. Organizers just leaving pockets unpicked because they're sooooooo sexist???
Women in the industry make cash by doing "sessions" with men. Men can make cash by doing sessions with... men.
That doesn't make it any less wrong. This system only persists because we accept the reasons that you put forth.
Well, there are a lot of problems with markets. It's silly that pharmaceutical companies make boner pills while millions suffer and die from malaria (though that will hopefully change soon). Or, more relevantly, think about all of the time and money people spend eating, training, eating, injecting, eating, primping in mirrors, and eating while children starve. That applies to all of us; we are "the system." I don't think someone deserves tens of millions for being really, really good at throwing a rubble ball through an iron hoop, but it is what it is. I read articles about basketball games; I don't donate to fundraisers for starving children.
The irony isn't lost on me at all. But.. i do live in reality. And the reality is male bodybuilding does simply attract more eyes than female bodybuilding. You're letting your emotions cloud reality.
Edit: reading more of muscle_toez post proves hes a hyper sensitive ultra politicsl correct donut. If you cant understand the basics of economics in sports then thats on you. Dunno why you bring up trans people?? Lol
Some of the married women competitors even slept with some of the judges to win favors.
What
The irony isn't lost on me at all. But.. i do live in reality. And the reality is male bodybuilding does simply attract more eyes than female bodybuilding. You're letting your emotions cloud reality.
Edit: reading more of muscle_toez post proves hes a hyper sensitive ultra politicsl correct donut. If you cant understand the basics of economics in sports then thats on you. Dunno why you bring up trans people?? Lol
LOL yeah I wouldn't say politically correct as much as... equality inclined.
You're not wrong, it is like that through most sports. I guess it's just depressing that a sport which celebrates female power (literally through strength and muscle) finds a way to marginalize its competitors and make them feel "less than" their male counterparts. Prize money and visibility could be made equal without breaking the bottom line, but I guess that doesn't happen in any sport, really.
What
Haha yeah, also very common knowledge that famous male competitors regularly do muscle worship and "gay for pay" sexual services to very wealthy clients. When you see them driving a Lambo on Instagram, it's not entirely due to that Gymshark sponsorship.
Haha yeah, also very common knowledge that famous male competitors regularly do muscle worship and "gay for pay" sexual services to very wealthy clients. When you see them driving a Lambo on Instagram, it's not entirely due to that Gymshark sponsorship.
Well obviously.
But the judge sleeping with female competitors that is corrupt as fuck. What an a-hole.
LOL yeah I wouldn't say politically correct as much as... equality inclined.
You're not wrong, it is like that through most sports. I guess it's just depressing that a sport which celebrates female power (literally through strength and muscle) finds a way to marginalize its competitors and make them feel "less than" their male counterparts. Prize money and visibility could be made equal without breaking the bottom line, but I guess that doesn't happen in any sport, really.
Sadly making prize money equal WILL break the bottom line. The undeniable fact is, people don't care about female sport. Sure they talk about supporting it, and alot actually do, but the reality is male sports have significantly better spectator/viewer numbers than female sports. And when people have to pay to watch it makes a massive difference. I know a couple who for many years ran local bodybuilding comps, they found crowds were bigger for the men than for the women. Majority of people would watch the male bodybuiding and physique classes, then start leaving. Bikini and figure were the most popular women's classes, physique girls usually ended up with only their supports watching. The last show they ran a couple of years ago they ended up only having bikini for the women because so many people have left for the other female classes, despite having enough girls interested in competeing even in physique. As for steroid use, the shows this couple ran were sanctioned by a "natural" sanctioning body, aside from a couple of questions about the use of PEDs that was it, only twice in the 10 years they ran shows did competitors actually get drug tested, and that was done by the anti doping agency.
And competitors sleeping with judges is pretty common, a friend of mine did a figure comp several years ago and was told if she wanted to win she would have to sleep with a judge and use steroids. That was by several people ranging from other girls, her friend who convinced her to compete and a couple of judges.
> And without PEDs, a female lifter would probably not have the musculature to make it on a site like this.
Wrong.
And we can safely assume that this is not the upper limit of what is possible.
WOW she is hot and all natural!!
🤦♂️
There's just an endless supply of these guys.
It is weird as this site is predicated on women who build muscle, many of whom use PED's. Either in denial or a troll.
You're not wrong, in fact I agree with pretty much everything you said, (except the part where you equate legalising drugs with legalising murder)
But it's horribly naive to think professional sports are about "fostering healthy competition"
Pro sports are about greed, money, and results. Not about fair competition. Drug testing only helps the richer athletes who can pay to cheat the testing system (for example Lance Armstrong ).
Ironically bodybuilding is more fair than baseball or football because of the lack of drug testing.
Anyways, I'm not arguing against you. Your heart's in the right place. I've dabbled with certain PEDs and I will never again as my body did not respond favorably to them and honestly I'd rather live a longer healthier life than have a better physique for a few years.
But I think we have to accept the reality of professional sports (including bodybuilding). Steroids work, and they work well. Athletes are going to use them regardless of laws. Remember prohibition? That turned out well. Maybe the answer is legalize all PEDs and tax the fuck out of them.